Locally Grown

It is interesting that you posted this on February 26 (2008) and no one has yet commented–does this mean the Locally Grown pundits think this is “no news?”

I agree with you that Northfield has not sat and done nothing, but we have been somewhat lax in our follow-through. I think there are 2 things at work:

1. Many in Northfield do not believe we have a drug problem or believe it is just certain “bad” kids and doesn’t affect them.

2. We have not struck at the base of this disease–where kids are beginning to venture into drug use, which is at drinking parties that are all over. (I am saying there is a big alchohol problem in Northfield that we are not addressing, even though some of our children have died and others gone on to serious drug problems.)

I agree with the comment about the editorial–this is not a “possible drug use problem” it is A SERIOUS DRUG USE PROBLEM. The Northfield News can’t seem to decide if they are with us or against us–according to the News, DARE is a “must” for Northfield schools but doesn’t do much to keep kids away from drugs, which I guess is OK with the News since drugs are only a “possible” problem.

DARE does not work for its stated purpose–educating kids about drugs so that they will not use drugs. It is nice that the police have good relationships with everyone in the community, including the kids, but this program is not the answer.

I was quite surprised that the paper would write an effusive article about this program when it is well documented and well studied–it doesn’t work. I think it is harmless and a good way to give teachers a break so they can catch up on prep time or at least not have to prep for teaching this topic. (Although I bet most of the teachers need to be in the room during the DARE presentation, negating any positive there.)

We really need to come up with ways of making our community healthy for recovering addicts–they need jobs and focus that keeps them away from former friends and habits.

#1

The problem is that DARE isn’t harmless if parents believe the school is doing something to stop drugs. I think the program should be renamed to reflect building relationships with police but without the drug component.
This is like teaching abstinence only and thinking kids won’t have sex. These things all make the parents feel better but don’t address the really uncomfortable things parents have to do themselves to help kids deal with drugs and sex. It’s lousy to have to be a kiljoy and make your kids have curfews, have limits on their friends and their activities and have limits on access to prescription drugs. It’s not always fun to be a parent, but it’s important.
Sure there need to be programs for kids, but there also needs to be ‘peer pressure’ by parents demanding that their friends act like grown-ups and quit worrying about being cool. We all want to believe our kids are the smartest, the wisest and that we’ve taught them to make good decisions. That’s the fallacy of DARE, that you can teach a 16-year-old to avoid drugs. Teen brains aren’t adult brains and really smart kids make lousy decisions. They need parents saying no and making good decisions for them until they are really ready to do it on their own.
Maybe parents should have to go through DARE when their kids are in middle school so the cops can tell them all the tricks their kids are going to use on them over the next few years.

#3

Mini-Survey: At Norm Butler’s Politics and a Pint, last Sunday evening, the subject of the DARE program came up. Out of the six adults who expressed and opinion, 5 felt that it had been statistically proven to be NON effective;
one person felt that if it benefitted even one child in a classroom that was enough.
I share the feeling that a program that has been studied as much as this one has, and found to be ineffective, can deflect efforts to provide a more effective program.
So what are the costs, dollars, time, wasted academic time etc, of this effort? Why do the schools/police want this if there are better programs?

#5

John, abuse anything and it will hurt you. Surely you’d agree that cocaine is, for the vast majority of people, going to be far more harmful than alcohol.

It would be great if nobody drank and nobody smoked pot, but as Anne said, it’s just not realistic.

Distinctions need to be made. Marijuana/Alcohol shouldn’t be put on the same level as severe drugs, and kids shouldn’t be duped into believing that one necessarily leads them down a path toward another.

#7

Oh my gosh, Wikipedia says that DARE is worthless, so it must be so… get serious.

Right now, Northfield needs all the help it can get. If not this program, then suggest another?

It is at least someone trying to make an effort, even if it is only a finger plugging the leak.

If you think the program is ineffective, lets get something else in here that is effective.

#9

Sean- You said, “…abuse anything and it will hurt you.” This is all too true. For that matter, if one breathes too much oxygen, they can die from oxidosis. Drink too much water? It throws your electrolites off and, again, you can die. Actually, what needs to be addressed is not the substance, but the reason for the abuse. If a person is predisposed to not being able to resolve life’s conflicts, the pattern is to look for “relief” in something outside themselves. We are not willing to put up with a mere headache or sniffy nose without taking some pill. It is a pattern of life in most affluent societies.

When a person runs into longer term conflicts, say a loss of a job, or, on the student level, flunking a class, or feeling they are an outcast from the other students, the natural reaction is to look for some pill to take to mask the pain. This is the addictive pattern that can develope. When we are dealing with chemicals that ascerbate this escape, rather than resolving the problem, we get into trouble. What is being taught in the public schools that compliments parental character teaching and reinforces parents’ values in their children? When I was growing up, if I got into trouble at school, then I was for sure going to be in trouble when I got home. I have three daughters that teach. The greatest challenge they face in the classroom is parents who will do anything to get their kids “off” rather than support the teachers in their discipline. Discipline?! Now, that is a rare commodity in this day and age. It is no wonder we have a whole generation of kids coming on who seem to have no concept of consequences and personal responsibility. That is just my opinion of what I observe, though.

It could be that DARE is actually teaching the wrong level. Perhaps some of the parents out there should go through the course so they can reinforce what is being taught in the classroom. I think we are addressing a growing problem in our society that is not going to be overcome with education alone.

#11

To Griff’s original questions 1 and 2: Yes and Yes. From the relatively little I know about DARE it does not seem to be particularly effective. I share the concerns of several of the folks commenting above that it may actually be counterproductive by giving parents the sense that the schools are “taking care of the problem,” when parents have a critically important role to play in bringing up kids less likely to abuse drugs. Policymakers and educated local stakeholders should be involved in this decision. I wish I knew of a more effective program I could recommend, but I don’t. Perhaps others do, and I welcome their suggestions.

My two kids (16 and 19) got anti-drug-use education in health classes from grade school through high school here in Northfield, but my wife and I have always felt it is primarily our responsibility to model responsible chemical use and support our kids in making wise choices and resisting peer pressure. I have serious doubts that DARE can make any difference unless parents are engaged from birth on as partners with the schools in teaching about this issue.

I also think we have an unhealthy obsession with abstinence concerning chemical use in this country, when the real issue, in my opinion is abuse. To focus obsessively on kids not using alcohol until they are 21, for example, seems unhelpful and almost certainly counterproductive. I am not suggesting that parents give a wink and a nod concerning drinking, or allow drinking parties in their homes, or anything of the sort. I am suggesting that discussing alcohol (and other drug) use openly and honestly is preferable to treating it as a taboo subject, and insisting that absolute abstinence under all circumstances is the only option.

My brother struggled with chemical dependency for about 30 years, and it was a terrible thing for him and those who love him. It doesn’t matter if the chemical is alcohol, marijuana, meth, heroin, Oxycontin, or anything else. Chemical dependency is a major problem in Northfield, as it is in probably every other community in the US. The most important thing this community could do would be to openly admit that chemical dependency is a major problem among not only young adults, but the entire population.

I caught a bit of a conversation on MPR’s Midmorning (host Kerri Miller and a father and son who have written memoirs, independently, about their hellish experiences with the son’s chemical dependency) which is germane to this conversation. Check it out at http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/03/06/midmorning2/.

We can’t afford to look the other way and pretend the schools, the DARE program, or anyone else is going to “take care of this problem” for us.

#13

I was the “one out of 6″ (in Kiffi’s comment #5) who thought if DARE helped even one child it was worth the effort.
When the subject came up the first things I heard people say were DARE is not effective. I asked why they thought so, where is that statistical information? How was it obtained? I would like to read it.

My children went to school in Kenyon during their pre-teen years and experienced the DARE program. They would come home and talk to me
about it. We often discussed the “drug” issues and the peer pressure kids face.
I truly believe that if kids have a good self esteem they can handle peer pressure. However, many kids want to “try” different drugs. They just don’t want to get hooked. Do I think my kids have ever tried drugs? Yes. This does not mean that they think it is smart or that now as adults they have anything to do with it.

I thought the program was good at the time my kids had it. I felt it helped me as a parent in my efforts to educate my children about drugs. (It wasn’t just because Mom and Dad said)
I am sure the program can be improved. How? I am not sure. Anyone have any ideas?

Sean, what are the “lies” that are told to kids through this program? Were you told these lies? Is it lumping all drugs together as to harmfulness? I am sincerely curious as to what you think.

Thanks,
Julie

#15

Sean, I know I’m asking a lot, but what would you include in a drug/alcohol awareness program? How would you teach it?

BTW, Bruce, thanks for your link to the MPR show in your post #13. It was, well, horrifying.

Also, I believe that both the middle and high school health classes were going to bring in speakers from the “Know the Truth” program this fall. I wonder if anyone heard how that went.

#17

I think there should be a program for parents of elementary school students — the parents who still come to teacher conferences. They should get information on using prescription drugs and alcohol carefully around their kids. They should be warned not to play up that cough medicine tastes like cherries or if they just take this medicine they will feel so much better. Children learn very quickly to ask for medicine when they have a tummy ache or vitamins because they look like dinosaurs or gummy worms. They wait for the good feeling when the medicine kicks in and soon know whether one pill is enough or two are needed.
We teach them very early to associate drugs with feeling good, then abruptly tell them drugs are bad. They know better.
Parents should keep all prescription drugs away from kids and count the pills. Same with alcohol. Many addicts are curious and start “experimenting” at 12 or 13. By the time parents talk to them it’s too late.
Parents should stress the importance of eating right, having a regular routine and using natural methods (rest, fluids, etc.) before resorting to medicine.
This isn’t about teaching drug awareness, or safe sex, this is teaching children how to be in touch with their feelings and their bodies and how to keep their lives in balance. Drugs, sex, money, cars, food, gambling, video games — anything that throws life out of balance can be a risk.

#19

Apologies accepted, John. Glad you’re hanging in there with us!

Curt, the Know the Truth web site is at: http://www.knowthetruth.mntc.org/

Know the Truth is a teenage substance abuse prevention program of Minnesota Teen Challenge- a faith-based residential drug and alcohol program for teenagers and adults. Know the Truth works with teenagers, parents and teachers, educating them in the dangers of substance use and offering help to those that seek it. We are individuals who have struggled with substance addiction and who now want to share with you our stories about our choices and our recovery.

#21

Sean- In reference to discipline, perhaps we are looking at two definitions. There is a connection that has been made between punishment and discipline. I wonder if that is underlying in your response to the word? I believe a more proper definition of discipline is the context of changing a behavior. For instance, a marathon runner “disciplines” his body to build up endurance. In academia, the various focuses are called “disciplines”. The whole implication here is that a person can change his behavior, beliefs, etc., as he applies himself to a “discipline.” This is exactly what a young person who is predisposed to abuse patterns needs to do. We are not animals, driven by uncontrolable instincts. We do have the ability to learn from our mistakes and change our behaviors.

This leads to my response to Bruce’s comment, “…I have serious doubts that D.A.R.E. can make any difference unless parents are engaged from birth on as partners with the schools in teaching about this issue.” This has got to be the best observation I have seen posted here. In our society of specialization, too many parents have given up the raising of their children to the “experts” in education. These educators should be merely reinforcing the values and directions we parents are instilling in our children. They are not supposed to be raising them for us. This is the common observation I have gotten from my three daughters and one daughter-in-law who are in education. They feel that many parents are passively involved in the lives of their children and are trusting the schools to straighten them out. This is a trend I believe must be reversed if we want to see our youth flourish. Perhaps my suggestion that D.A.R.E. include involvement of the parents would be the catalyst that would make the program work. In fact, I’m not sure ANY program will work if there is not involvement of the parents.

#23

Sean: thanks for a really great list of suggestions, whether you say it was just a quick “off the top of your head”, or not. It looked pretty good to me.

I think the best program would be one that kids had a hand in structuring.

Julie: you also make a good point in saying that the program was a stimulus for your kids to come home and talk with you, and therefore the “prompt” of the school program was positive.

I still would like to know what it costs to put DARE in the schools, who pays for it, school? police? is it a gov’t subsidized program? How much time in the classroom is invested in it? Do teachers want it?

Anyone know what’s the most credible review/ analysis of the program…….
Jane: do you know?

#25

October 11, 1993 USA Today did an article regarding the DARE program, research studies, and DARE program supporters who have continually attempted to suppress the results of the studies, which in a nutshell, conclude:

“A preliminary report from the RTI — analyzing eight studies involving 9,500 children — says D.A.R.E. has “a limited to essentially non-existent effect” on drug use. ”

The studies that have been done, including those by researchers hired by DARE, all conclude the same.

As a child of the sixties, I am skeptical of a program where the supporters attempt to refute or suppress analysis of their program rather than modify or improve the program. I don’t know how to tie into the 1993 USA Today, but I believe there are more studies and information, as well, I just don’t have time to follow up on that.

#27

When I was a kid, we were told all sorts of things about drugs. Many of them were absolute nonsense. Some of them were true. A lot of kids, once they found out that some of them were nonsense, didn’t believe the true ones either.

I know this is probably one of those radical ideas the world’s not ready for, but what if we had a drug education program that was honest with kids about the comparative risks, about which things are addictive — and which aren’t — and otherwise treated them like they were capable of making decisions, just a little? I would think that the long-term benefit of not having the entire program dismissed as transparent lies would be worth it.

Scare tactics turn out not to be especially effective…

#29

I need someone to give me the ground rules on other people’s comments.
Can we retort? If there are guidelines, please direct me to the location. I am possibly at the wrong location to be asking this question??? I would like to respond to Kiffi Summa’s observations about Teen Challenge. Especially in light of her bar room poll that she finds accurate. Thanks P.S, I just found the comment guidlines link.

Kiffi do you know anything about Teen Challenge other than what you have read on their web-site?
Do you know that Judges have the ability to remand defendants to their 60 day in-house treatment plan?
Do you think that trained professionals such as judges and lawyers would send juveniles to a non-professional treatment facility? Do you know the recidivism rates of the TeenChallenge programs? If their recidivism rate is really as low as their statistics say, then isn’t that proven effectivness?

#31

Yes, Sean, I am a Pastor. Actually I am a Licensed Minister with the Assemblies of God. I have recently resigned as Pastor of Abundant Life Assembly here in Northfield, where my wife and I ministered for 17 years. My knowledge of Teen Challenge would be considered more than casual. There is no doubt that Teen Challenge is a Christian “Faith-Based” organization. Everything in life has some kind of “faith” base. An organization either recognizes a diety, or it does not. Or you may place your faith in other things such as human nature, psychology, or the medical community. Nothing in life is neutral. My concern is the assumption that anything religous is somehow dangerous or covert in their ultimate purpose. I don’t doubt that certain religous organizations have agendas that have negative motives. The question that needs to be asked is, why do these types of organizations such as Teen Challenge exsist? Actions speak louder than words. Teen Challenge saves Minnesota tax payers millions of dollars each year by providing free treatment to adult students, and minimal charges to juveniles. The State provides no funding directly to T.C. and any govermental funds which come through county programs go to pay for room and board. I will not bore you with all the figures, but check out how much a year-long treatment program costs the State of Minnesota. Medical professionals are very important, but so are Spiritual professionals. I personally believe that when you break your leg you should go to the doctor, and if you need someone to drive you to the clinic your pastor just might be the right person. His professional help is not in fixing your bones but calming your heart and speaking words of comfort. Pity the man who has no one to pick him up when he falls down.Teen Challenge works very closely with medical professionals and has a very strict policy on providing proper physical care to all of their students. Is Christianity a big part of Teen Challenge? Yes. If some other religious or non-religous organization wants to develop a more effecient way of treating individuals with life-controlling habits, please do! I think that financial hurdles will most likely prevent most “care-givers” from stepping into this realm of prevention and treatment.

#33

I’ve been a supporter of Teen Challenge for several years. I challenge anyone to attend their annual event, talk with participants and not come away convinced of the powerful work they do. They have a tremendous outreach to people and it seems to work well.
But I believe the majority of their work is with people….youth and adults…that are already having trouble with drugs and alcohol. As Joe pointed out, the state does get involved in this program by providing financial support for the costs of living for the residents. They also expect to see success in the program, which is demonstrated on a regular basis.
I think Teen Challenge is a perfect example of a public-private partnership that works.

#35

I found a link to a video created by Minnesota Teen Challenge. The schedule on their website shows that they will be presenting their program for two days in the Northfield High School in April–it’s not like they’ve taken over the drug education component of the health classes. I believe the health teachers must have seen some value in their presentation since they must have invited them back after seeing them in last fall’s classes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=902uF_1g2ms

#37

Hi all,

I’m behind on this board and will be reading over the next few days to catch up since it looks like an interesting discussion. In the meantime, John George requested specifics on the potential damaging effects of alcohol on the teenage developing brain. The American Medical Association has a report on this which includes the following statements:

Drinkers vs. non-drinkers: research findings

* Adolescent drinkers scored worse than non-users on vocabulary, general information, memory, memory retrieval and at least three other tests
* Verbal and nonverbal information recall was most heavily affected, with a 10 percent performance decrease in alcohol users
* Significant neuropsychological deficits exist in early to middle adolescents (ages 15 and 16) with histories of extensive alcohol use
* Adolescent drinkers perform worse in school, are more likely to fall behind and have an increased risk of social problems, depression, suicidal thoughts and violence
* Alcohol affects the sleep cycle, resulting in impaired learning and memory as well as disrupted release of hormones necessary for growth and maturation
* Alcohol use increases risk of stroke among young drinkers

Adverse effects of alcohol on the brain: research findings
Youth who drink can have a significant reduction in learning and memory, and teen alcohol users are most susceptible to damaging two key brain areas that are undergoing dramatic changes in adolescence:

* The hippocampus handles many types of memory and learning and suffers from the worst alcohol-related brain damage in teens. Those who had been drinking more and for longer had significantly smaller hippocampi (10 percent).
* The prefrontal area (behind the forehead) undergoes the most change during adolescence. Researchers found that adolescent drinking could cause severe changes in this area and others, which play an important role in forming adult personality and behavior and is often called the CEO of the brain.

They go on to suggest specifics of what can be done to reduce teen alcohol use.

For the record, I’m opposed to DARE for the reasons others have outlined above. Also, for any who don’t know, DARE is the topic of next week’s Politics & a Pint discussion: see http://politicsandapint.wordpress.com/

#39

Josh, I don’t know you, so I am wondering why you feel opposed to this oganization? Is it the Jesus factor? WIth no sarcasim intented, do you think they might talk about God in an innapropriate way? If they intended on having a church service in the school don’t you think that the principal would object? I personally find no problem with Christians operating assemblies in school. If my doctor was a Christian I wouldn’t expect him to share Bible verses during my annual exam. Christians do have the ability to stay focused on teaching drug prevention to teenagers, without proselytizing them into their specific faith expereince. A number of the teachers in Northfield High School attend Christian churches and go to bible-studies, yet find the ability to separate work from church activities. I think that people (in general) are afraid that some one might hear the name of God in a public school. God’s name is spoken every day in school, sometimes nobly, yet more often not.

#41

Joe,

It is nice to meet you. The thing I have an issue with is that the organization has an inherent and documented agenda that is religiously based. While it is permissible for public schools to teach about religion, it is not permissible to promote particular religious beliefs. If a Muslim or Catholic (or any religious) organization came in and taught about drug prevention, etc. it would be equally upsetting and illegal. I would have no problem with a secular organization doing this but NOT one that is religiously based. Even if a religious organization does not mention God, their organization is completely enveloped by religious dogma and it is in fact a mission of the organization to include Christ within its drug rehabilitation. This is the argument I have from a lawful stature. If we wish to get personal I could bring politics and funding sources of Minnesota Teen Challenge into the picture. You maybe okay with, and may agree with, these funding sources, but I do not. But this second argument is strictly from a personal level and has nothing to do with the legal issues I have.

Besides, from looking at the information the major differences MTC and a secular organization is that MTC uses Christian theology and doesn’t seem to have trained professionals. If you take away the Christian aspect, what the heck are the untrained professionals going to talk about? I’d rather have trained professionals talking to the youth at the high school.

#43

Although I am not a parent, I agree with Josh that the Teen Challenge program is not appropriate in a public school setting. I did check out their Know the Truth website (sponsored by Walser Chevrolet). Perhaps they do secular programming in the schools…but even so…just the title “Know the Truth” is disturbing.

Oh, and they have a MySpace page too…only 80 members and 7 comments, so not very informative.

http://www.myspace.com/preventaddiction

#45

Joe: Once again, I must use the word appalled. How could you not, in your responses, say that at least some of your support for Teen Challenge comes from the fact that it is directly related to the Assemblies of God Churches?

That certainly is a factor in your appraisal of the organization; how could it not be? Surely you give your wholehearted support to any organization that is a “subset” of your church.

Let’s be clear; I need to reiterate…..The fact that it is “faith-based” is not what I find fault with. My objection is still based on the lack of medical professionals on the Board of Directors.

I question whether the High School is getting themselves into the same sort of precarious position as they did with the very controversial Music Assembly, some years ago, that had objectionable outcomes for many students; asa matter of fact I remember a very thorough letter of concern from the District Supt. at that time , detailing the problems caused by that Music Assembly.

Why revisit that territory?

#47

Kiffi, I am happy to answer your question. Teen Challenge is under the “covering” or leadership of the Assemblies of God. Most genuine Christian organizations have some kind of accountability group. Even St Olaf college has affiliations with the ELCA. I know that the Board of Directors for Teen Challenge is filled with men and women from various Christian denominations. Here is a list of board members.
Darrel Amiot - Amiot Financial
Bill Bojan - Integrated Governance Solutions
Carol DeOtis - Edina Realty
Paul Flower - Flower & Schutz, PLC
Jan Hawkins - John Henry Foster
Dale Holmgren - Granite Pointe Partners
Jim Huseby - Becker Furniture World
Vicki Jefferis - Grace Manor
Peter Murlowski - Timber Craft Enterprises, Inc.
Daniel Mus - Brooklyn Printing
Terry Plath - Lawson Software
Steve Poppen - Minnesota Vikings
John Roise - Lindsay Windows
Rev. Richard Scherber - Minnesota Teen Challenge
Rev. Clarence St. John - MN District Council of the Assemblies of God
Frank Vennes - Metro Gem

3 of these individuals are directly connected with my fellowship. (Assemblies of God) Possibly others, cannot say for certain.

Before I was a Minister with the A/G I attended an A/G congegation and before that I was a member of Calvary Lutheran Church in Willmar. (Sen. Dean Johnson was my youth pastor.)
(The girls were nicer looking at the A/G church in Willmar. God works in mysterious ways!)

I supported Teen Challenge even when I was growing up in Willmar. Back then the Minnesota group was just starting. (U.S. TC started in late 50’s)
I support more non-A/G ministries than I do from my own fellowship.

Teen Challenge does a very good job of not over-promoting their leadership denomination.

Lest we forget, the Salvation Army is a Christian Denomination.

The American Red Cross-Clara Barton -her faith motivated her to help the hurting.

AA was started by 2 men who saw a need for supernatural intervention.

Samaritains Purse was recharged by a wayward son of Billy Graham
Franklin Graham and operation Christmas Child, last year, provided Christmas gifts to millions of children in 120 nations around the world.

I could go on! I support many ministries, Catholic, Protestant, or non-denominational.

Gary Gilbertson, from Northfield, who helps college students connect with other Christians on various campuses.

Ok! I’ll quit.
The point is, yes! they have A/G background, I find no conflict!

#49

Joe, the problem is that the people who agree with a specific faith group seldom find its presence offensive or intrusive. I remember a choir director in Duluth who saw nothing wrong with limiting his class songlist to Western European church music, even though the rabbi’s daughter had to spend hours a day practicing it throughout the semester, then sing the carols at the ‘winter’ concert. Funny how few Christians saw this as a problem, yet when Somali women want to wear scarves and long dresses in gym class, those same people are very upset
It’s human nature. We think that what’s normal for us should be normal for everyone. That’s why public places should be places where we all can be normal in our own way as long as we don’t start forcing our version of normal on others.
I do think there’s a difference between donating toys or food to the Salvation Army and having the Salvation Army run programs in the school. If Teen Challenge ran a truly secular version of its program for public schools and a religious one for other audiences, fine, but it doesn’t — and that’s the problem.

#51

For me it isn’t about what is legal (I don’t have the ability to challenge an organization like this in court, and I don’t even pretend to know all the law surrounding it). For me personally it is about the fact that I do not believe in the existence of a higher power (I don’t want to start that argument, I am merely stating my personal beliefs). I have never experienced the program that Teen Challenge presents in schools, so I judge the religious content of the program. Where I have a problem is when a person’s religiousness is equated with their worth (eg. to over come drugs you must embrace god, people that are religious are inherently more moral). It when religion is used to solve problems of people that aren’t religious, is where I have a problem. I admire the work that some of the organizations do in solving problems, but I don’t think that it is fair for these groups to present to a class where attendance is obligatory. Also religiously based groups should never be given federal funding, if they want to have access to the coffers of the entire population of the United States then they have to reflect the views of the entire United States (namely, no denomination or religious group is followed by the entire population, so therefore the government must remain unbiased towards all members of its population).
I hope my post didn’t fall to far out of the scope of its intention.
Max

#53