What’s the matter with Kansas Northfield? Too many of us are snobs.
Apr.21 2008 at 07:51 by Griff Wigley
Ever since Snobamagate, I’ve been thinking about the degree to which I’m a snob… and whether Northfield has more than its share of snobbish people.
Twenty-five years ago, I worked for the Faribault Public Schools as a school social worker and it struck me how frequently the snobbishness of Northfielders came up in conversations among faculty and staff who I worked with. It really grated on them. Since then, alarm bells always go off in my head whenever I hear a fellow Northfielder make a snide remark about Faribault, Dundas, or other towns nearby.
The snide remarks are nearly always made by someone with at least a college education and the target of their remarks is the one of main demographics that Clinton and Obama are fighting over for this week’s primary in Pennsylvania – the white, working class with a high school education.
In one of the comments I added to my January blog post, Why do you love Northfield? Why should people move here?, I wrote:
I often tell people that one of the neat things about Northfield is its social diversity. Most small towns with a college or university are dominated by its presence. They become a 99% latte town as described by David Brooks in Bobos in Paradise. Northfield is 50% a latte town. Half the population aren’t bobos, and I like that. Lots of conservatives and libertarians. Lots of blue collar, working class people. Lots of religious folks. Lots of people who volunteer in ways that bobos don’t.
I think many of us Northfielders who could be seen as bobos, especially the progressive liberal elites (which, as an Obama supporter with a Master’s degree, I’m arguably one, my support for Ray Cox, Tom Neuville and appreciation of the commentaries by David Brooks not withstanding), don’t recognize our own arrogance when we deal with others in the public sphere who are ‘not like us,’ especially ‘not smart like us.’
I think Obama is less of a snob than I am, but there’s probably a tendency in all of us to get a little condescending when talking about others who you don’t hang out with much. Once you’re a Senator, your circle of social contacts gets pretty limited, no matter what your roots.
I drink coffee most often at GBM and the HideAway, not the Quarterback or Perkins. I drink beer most often at The Cow and Froggy’s, rarely at the L&M or Corner Bar. When I go bowling at Jesse James Lanes with my kids, I don’t usually know anyone else there. I loved the Adult Spelling Bee. I don’t watch NASCAR events. I go to art gallery openings. I drink a lot of white wine in the winter.
But most of the guys I play racquetball and ride motorcycles with hang out in a totally different circle. They’ve never even heard of Locally Grown. I’d hate to think I’d be condescending in a conversation about them but I can see how it could happen if someone asked me why none of these guys frequent LoGroNo. I could easily make the same mistake as Obama did and slip into a little psychoanalysis that could be seen as patronizing.
I really like the PBS special, People Like Us: Social Class in America, because it touches on all these class issues and opens your eyes. I think it should be shown yearly in a ‘Social Class in Northfield’ event at The Grand, even though ‘my types’ would be the only ones to show up for it.
Posted in Reflection
Anthony Pierre April 21, 2008 9:09 am
Bill Mahr, on his show on HBO, interviewed a bunch of bikers and gun owners to see how that Obama ‘bitter’ comment sat with them.
here is the video:
#1
Jane McWilliams April 21, 2008 9:28 am
Griff: As you said, “there’s probably a tendency in all of us to get a little condescending when talking about others who you don’t hang out with much.” I probably have been a snob about Faribault all these years, but I’ve recently come to appreciate how well that city functions. River Bend Nature Center is a good example. This extraordinarily beautiful and active facility is made possible by the cooperation of the city, a non-profit supported by generous benefactors and hundreds of volunteers who build trails, teach kids and fill bird feeders. The school district sends every K-6 student out there 2 or 3 times a year for substantive environmental education programs.
Northfielders should visit the newly refurbished old movie house, now a Center for the Arts, to see how Faribault has succeeded in creating a magnet for the downtown which features not only the restored theater, but excellent places for artists to work and for others to learn. Many of the handsome old buildings on Central Avenue have been restored and there seems to be a lot of energy along the street. There are probably other reasons we should admire Faribault. All it takes is a short drive south!
#2
BruceWMorlan April 21, 2008 10:25 am
Anthony, you pointed us to a very interesting video. Since I do not have cable or the like, I miss lots of these interesting stories. I really enjoyed watching this one, since my sons (in Ohio) are akin to the guys in this story.
One of the biggest problems we face as a society is how to balance our desire to clique up (think HS pep rallies, Vikings v. Packers, Cryps v. Bloods, Dems v. Reps) with our need to keep our conversations open and flowing. If all you ever do is latte-up and think you are somehow connected might I suggest you browse the bar at the bowling alley, snoop around to the Eagles for one of their fund-raising brunches (preferably for something you normally would not support, like say a fund-raiser to buy calves for local 4H members to raise for the county fair), or hang out by the river and talk with the anglers there. It can be an exhilarating experience.
#3
Curt Benson April 21, 2008 11:02 am
Several years ago I had a Northfield High School student working in my machine shop. When he was making plans for an education after high school, I suggested technical college, pointing out several programs that seemed to promise a good future.
He was insulted, thinking that I was putting him down. Actually, the opposite was true. I thought he had a great work ethic. He could figure things out faster than anyone else I’d employed. He enjoyed making stuff. He wanted to be self employed. I thought he could learn a well paying, in demand trade of some sort, and be working for himself in a matter of a few years.
After talking to him a bit, I concluded that for at least some Northfielders, going to a technical school was an admission of inferiority.
Later, I spoke with a local guy who is a very successful businessman. He employs many skilled blue collar workers and actively works with the area technical schools. He bristled when I told him about my experience with my employee. He thought the devaluation of technical, blue collar skills was true everywhere, but much more so in Northfield. He thought the presence of the colleges had something to do with it. I have to agree.
#4
Brendon Etter April 21, 2008 11:17 am
I grew up in very small towns in northern Minnesota. I watched, heard and participated in tons of prejudicial speech against social class from the lower and lower-middle class perspective. It runs both ways.
In fact, it runs all ways. I remember how my itty-bitty town of my childhood - pop. 120 when the wind was right - had “classes” of people, even though nearly the whole town was lower to lower-middle class, at best. Those with just a tiny bit more money derided the squalor of those with just a tiny bit less money, much like the racism exercised by people against others within their same broader racial category. Much like the regionalism evident across America.
In trashing the perceived elitism of Northfield, Griff, your Faribault colleagues were attempting to make themselves appear better in comparison to Northfield, which is, largely, the definition of elitism.
Social class bias is rampant, but it crosses all classes
I’m grateful that I’ve experienced many social classes and had friends across the field of personal / family income and ranging the spectrum of educational attainment. I tend to go for people who have a good, active sense of humor and are stimulating intellectually, which are traits independent of income and official education. I’ve found dull people are dull regardless of class or schooling. That’s who I am.
Of course, I have plenty of biases, diverse and subtle. We all do. Pretending you don’t is simply another form of elitism, and it prevents you from working on the biases. I believe Kurt Vonnegut said all you could do is be kind. That’s so very true.
Thanks to Tony for the link in comment #2. Very enlightening comments from Pennsylvanians who understood what Obama meant.
#5
Patrick Enders April 21, 2008 11:44 am
Brendon,
I agree.
I think it is a universal phenomenon - one that we must consciously resist - that “we” are better than “them.”
#6
BruceWMorlan April 21, 2008 1:52 pm
Norm Butler (of the Contented Cow) has suggested (half in jest, but still) that perhaps Dundas should try to create a small technical school to form a sort of Research triangle in the area. I mentioned that the two existing colleges could loan faculty and/or classes to round out the otherwise “too technical” nature of a small school, and the school could offer more hands-on classes for the students at the two liberal arts schools we already have. The Dundas-Bridgewater Inst. of Tech (Go D-BITs!) would anchor the triangle and could help balance out the educational opportunities in this area. It could focus on small scale farming (leaving industrial farming to the UofM types), technical issues, physical arts (metalworking and arts) and pre-engineering (a two year program that feeds into the four year system). Why not just use Faribault’s school? (sniff, they’re soooooo southern, way too southern for our northern sensibilities).
#7
Anthony Pierre April 21, 2008 2:00 pm
I don’t understand using elitism as a derogatory term.
I wanted the best doctor to repair my knee, am I elitist? I want the best person to be president, not someone that would have fun with my at a BBQ. (I stole that from bill mahr :P)
#8
David Ludescher April 21, 2008 2:14 pm
If the bobos (snobs) in Northfield actually wanted to make Northfield more diverse, they would quit trying to social engineer Northfield into a bobo town. Look at the Comp Plan. Even though it has been changed, it still reads like a Bobo Manifesto.
There is nothing wrong in being a bobo. The problem is thinking that everyone can or should be a bobo. When you are smart and cultured, it is difficult to imagine why everyone wouldn’t want to be like you.
#9
Patrick Enders April 21, 2008 2:58 pm
This bobo term. People use it a lot*, but I don’t know many people in Northfield that it would actually apply to. Sounds like yet another derogatory stereotype.
People are complicated, and hard to understand. Calling some people ‘bobos’ will get you about as much goodwill (or help in revising our Comp Plan) as calling other people ‘yokels’ or ‘yahoos’ might. And it shows just as much toleration and understanding.
*: Actually, I’ve only heard it used here, and by David Brooks when he was talking/writing elsewhere. Heck, the term doesn’t even have its own Wikipedia page yet.
#10
Bruce Anderson April 21, 2008 3:29 pm
Excellent topic, Griff, and a lot of interesting comments. Growing up in Northfield in the mid-60s through mid-’70s, it was abundantly clear to me that class issues/problems were just as prevalent in Northfield as anywhere else (if not more so). Nothing has changed in the intervening decades. We in Northfield tend to think we live in a “special place” (which we do!), but we have a LOT to learn from other communities, and lots of room for improvement in this and many other areas.
Anthony, I thought the Bill Mahr/Jeremy Scahill YouTube video you posted was fascinating, and an excellent examination of the manufactured outrage over Obama’s “elitism.”
I have to agree with Patrick’s comments (#10) regarding use of the term “bobos” in comments such as yours, David L. (#9). Pretty off-putting, and not at all helpful in engaging in meaningful discussion. Nobody likes to be stereotyped, and stereotypes are nearly always inaccurate and mostly useful in perpetuating we/they conflict.
#11
Griff Wigley April 21, 2008 3:35 pm
I’m swamped with work today and not much time to comment. But I’m the one who started using the shorthand ‘bobo’ here and I think David L was following my lead.
I just feel compelled to defend any poor helpless lawyer who happens to wander in here.
#12
Curt Benson April 21, 2008 4:24 pm
Hey lighten up. David Brooks coined the “Bobo” term. “Bobos in Paradise” is hardly scathing. It’s a sort of affectionate, bemused look at the Bobo world.
If I were to rank all groups of people in order of how deserving they are of victim status, I’d place Bobos towards the bottom, right before people with enormous trust funds, or women who are prettier than Kathryn Veta Jones.
Keep it up, David L.
#13
John S. Thomas April 21, 2008 4:29 pm
This would be one heck of a topic for a F2F salon… a conversation in which I would love to participate.
#14
Susan Hvistendahl April 21, 2008 5:05 pm
John S., you are welcome to discuss whatever you wish at the upcoming F2F Northfield social gathering May 20 at Froggy Bottoms, Happy Hour, 4-6 p.m. and beyond. But I think you meant SALOON, instead of salon! Bobos welcome, too.
#15
Patrick Enders April 21, 2008 5:05 pm
My first experience of the term ‘bobo’ was here, when Griff previously suggested that half of the townsfolk might in fact be bobos. My first reaction was about the same as when I first heard “macaca” - that is, I have no idea what that word is, but I’m pretty sure it’s not a compliment.
Now, a minimum of investigation reassured me that bobo is nothing like macaca, but it still comes off as a smug, dismissive, and just a bit demeaning term. And again, one that artificially imposes an false us-versus-them divide on what is i fact a very diverse group of individuals in this town.
#16
Patrick Enders April 21, 2008 5:12 pm
Hey Curt,
Just to be clear: I’m not talking about awarding anyone victim status. I’m just suggesting that 1) people often defy easy categorization, and 2) nice words can go a long way in helping people get along with each other. Anyway, my comments were more directed towards Griff than towards David L.
And didn’t this thread start by talking about the problem of snobbery and condescension?
#17
David Ludescher April 21, 2008 5:53 pm
Thanks for the saves, Griff and Curt. I understood that bobo = bourgeois + bohemian = self-interested liberal idealist.
#18
Griff Wigley April 21, 2008 6:55 pm
Susan, no, John meant ‘salon‘ like the Utne Reader salons.
#19
Bright Spencer April 21, 2008 7:01 pm
I don’t think anyone who graduated with a masters or even a doctorate before 2005 has anything to be snooty about.
#20
John S. Thomas April 21, 2008 8:36 pm
Ok… I have 5 diplomas from Uncle Sam’s school of hard knocks (5 honorable discharges / enlistments), a 2 year Associates Degree, a 4 year Bachelor’ s Degree with a triple major, Microsoft Certifications and I am working on my MBA in Information Technology Management.
What does that make me? Well, for one thing, broke from Student Loans.
But by no means do I feel that I am elitist, a bobo, or a snob. I am just a person who worked very damn hard to get where I am. It has taken me over 25 years to get where I am, and I am not finished. I have lots of check marks in the been there, done that column, but there will always be someone else that has done more, or is a little smarter.
Does that make me any better than anyone else? NO.
Does that make me proud of who I am personally? DAMN RIGHT.
Just because I didn’t make an arbitrary date, or an arbitrary standard, does that mean that I don’t get to join the super secret Northfield club that meets after dark on the Riverwalk on every third Thursday after a full moon?
I didn’t make the 2005 deadline, but raising a family was more important. The goals I have are MY GOALS, not the goals I need to make it to a certain level, or be a certain level of standing in the community.
My point is this. I consider myself a born and raised “blue collar” Montanan. I clawed and scratched and scraped every day since I emancipated myself at 16. However, today, I work a very technical white collar job.
I do my best to judge no one, as I have been there. I have done janitorial. I have had massively exciting careers in the food service industry. I have been on food stamps & public assistance. I have lived on PBJ and top ramen for 2 weeks, and walked to work because I had no money for gas or insurance. But I grew from all of those experiences, and learned that I did not want to do those things for the rest of my life.
Bozo’s, Bobo’s, snobs… its all a label. Everyone needs to look at yourself and how you conduct your life. Treat everyone as you would want to be treated. There is way too much BS in the world. We need more kindness.
Maybe I have not lived here long enough (Dec 2001) or drank enough of the Kool-Aid yet, but I don’t think I have a particular bias against Faribault or Dundas, or Farmington for that matter. I have my opinions, but I don’t look down on those that live there. I work in St. Paul, and I know that the big city life is not for me.
Having a college degree makes me educated. It doesn’t automatically make me a snob. I don’t remember that course being taught in school.
I am just afraid that if we start throwing the word snob around… the next thing you know, someone will say that we are “geographically or economically racist”. If you go and look up “racist” and “snob”… they have some disconcerting similarities…
As for the part of “snob” that reads… one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social superiors… well, no one here is my social superior. You are all my friends, neighbors, peers, and countrymen. I do not have the time to go chasing any perceived “cliques” here in town. I have too many other higher priority tasks that need to be done, like raising my family.
This is turning into a very unstructured rant, so that must mean I should end it.
I guess that all I am trying to say is that we are all human beings, and as such, we are all equal on this earth and in the eyes of god. Just because you have a few more bucks, live 8 miles north, or two miles south, clean floors, or program computers, you are no better than your fellow man.
Everyone needs to move past labels, and all the rhetoric. You need to get up in the morning, and do some good for humanity with the skills you have learned and been given. Life is too short to be a snob.
God bless you all, and thank you for this lively discussion. I really wish that I could discuss this more over a couple of beers. It is much easier to debate the issues face to face.
So Endeth the Rant… I apologized if I strayed too far off topic.
#21
Susan Hvistendahl April 21, 2008 9:30 pm
Griff, hmmm, can John S. T. get the beer he wants at that salon you referred to? A saloon may be better for F 2 F beers…
#22
Patrick Enders April 21, 2008 9:53 pm
John,
Nice rant.
#23
john george April 21, 2008 10:44 pm
This whole thing centers around self image, me thinks. There has been so much emphasis put on this aspect of ourselves that I think we sometimes lose sight of reality. I just read a funny about how we were in the ’50’s. One comment said that back then, we had to accomplish something before we had a right to feel good about ourselves. This is a self defeating attitude that has caused all sorts of problems for people and equated value to accomplishment. The pendulum has swung so far the other way now that people are content with having a good self image and never accomplishing anything in their lives. So there must be a place of balance in our lives that we don’t think more highly of ourselves than we ought to. If we equate value with accomplishment, then what about the unfortunate who cannot accomplish anything because of physical/mental disabilities?
In our society, high value is put on accomplishment, be it getting good grades in school, playing sports proficiently or being successful in business. There is a place for accomplishments to be rewarded, but this in no way should elevate a person to a place of “greater value.” Physical differences and abilities are just that- differences. It is difficult, though, for some to be able to separate their “value” from their “accomplishments”, especially if one is of the male gender. This is one of the reasons many men die off quickly after retirement- They no longer have “value” because they no longer work.
The unfortunate result of competitiveness in our society is to separate people of different disciplines rather than unite them. There seems to be an innate part in people to want to be the “best”. This, of course, means that everyone else is something less than the best. Then come the labels to try to “define” the differences. It is an unfortunate part of human nature. You can see it demonstrated amongst two year olds on the playground. Is there hope for this state? I believe so, and I see it demonstrated in the lives of the people in the church I attend.
So, how’s that for a rant?
#24
john george April 21, 2008 10:49 pm
Oops! Forgot my last thought, which (I hope) relates back to the thread. Is there “elitism” in Northfield? Yes. But I think it is just because we are a normal collection of people, and, just like the two year olds on the playground, we are not going to outgrow some tendencies. The healthy part comes in recognizing it and dealing with it in our own lives when it rears its ugly head.
#25
Peter Seebach April 22, 2008 2:05 am
Some years back, a friend of ours observed that, in Northfield, he was just a person, but in Faribault, he got stared at. (He was not a participant in our local ethnic homogeny.) I certainly wouldn’t have moved to Dundas or Faribault, and the community is a big part of the reason.
It’s not that I particularly object to people without college educations, or working-class people, or whatever. It is that they are very likely to object to me. In the late 80s, as I was on my way to college one day, I was accosted (seriously, that is EXACTLY the right word) by a rather drunk man who informed me that all this computer stuff wasn’t a real job, and you couldn’t make a living doing computers, and education was stupid. He wasn’t violent, so I guess I don’t really object that much, but I think I’d be uncomfortable in a community with many more people who felt that way.
Elitism is all over, and I think it’s odd that people seem to assume it’s one-sided. Like racism, like sexism, it goes both ways; we tend to view the groups we identify with as superior to other groups. The assumption that it is the people with the college educations doing the looking-down-on is a sort of implausible assumption, really — but I suppose it’d seem natural to a cluster of people many of whom have college degrees, no?
#26
John S. Thomas April 22, 2008 5:25 am
I pondered this a great deal last night.
Let me pose this question. Is it “Elitism” if you have made a decision against a certain career path or area to live?
I ask this, because as I grew up in Montana, I found that I did not want to be a cowboy, and that living in a very small town was not going to allow me to grow as a person. There was not enough of an economic base in order to support the type of career I wanted. I really did not want to work at the Sugar Beet plant, or at the oil refinery, or the grain elevator. All of these are good jobs, but it was not really what I wanted to do. I wanted to pursue technology, and the only way out was to join the military.
I would move back to Montana in a heartbeat, IF I had the financial resources to do so, and Jake was off to school. The economy is still not where it needs to be.
So, does moving to Northfield make me a snob? Well, if you are a resident of Two Dot, and visiting Northfield… it looks like the big city. There are many opportunities here, many nice things, and many nice people. Northfield could be quite overwhelming.
Could we be percieved as snobs by outsiders?
Probably. Many of the folks around here are kind of self absorbed. I know that many days, I am in my own little world, as I am somewhat sleep deprived, and just trying to get done what needs to get done.
However, I am always willing to stop, and offer assistance or a kind word to a tourist, and help them on their way to the NAG, or the Grand, or any of our amazing “pearls” that we have to enjoy.
I don’t think we are elite. I just think that many in the community have worked very hard to build what we have, and we are DAMN PROUD of Northfield.
Just because we may have two colleges, and our demographic skews slightly towards higher education does not make us any better than everyone else.
It’s 5:20 AM. Time for some caffeine. No Latte for me, but I will however enjoy my fair trade peace coffee from Just Foods. Thats not elite, thats just trying to do some good in the world as well.
Make it a GREAT DAY people!
“Peace, Love, Recycle”
-J
#27
Bill Ostrem April 22, 2008 8:01 am
Nice post, Griff. Though my background is different, I resonated with Brendon’s comments (#5) and with Griff’s original post, but the latter more in the sense that I know I’m capable of arrogance and bias towards those who are not like me. We all pick and choose where we go based on our comfort levels. I’ve gone to Chapati a dozen times but never to the Eagle’s Club or Diamond Dave’s or the Legion.
On the other hand, I go to both Cub and Just Food. I go to a church that has a broad socioeconomic cross-section of the community, and I’ve attended religious retreats with evangelicals who do not share my progressive views.
Like many of us, my background is a mixture of classes: My paternal grandfather was the chief sewer engineer with the City of Minneapolis and had a college degree. His son, my father, however, nearly became a plumber and ended up living and working as a teacher in the western suburbs of Minneapolis, surrounded by wealthy business folk. Our trips were camping trips while my friends went skiing in Colorado.
My maternal grandfather was a working-class union member who worked for the Duluth Missabe and Iron Range Railroad as a clerk and liked FDR. His daughter, my mother, was able to attend college at Hamline and become a nurse.
While I might have been relatively high status in much of Minnesota (though not at Wayzata or Woodhill Country Clubs), when I attended Princeton University to get a Ph.D. in English, I found myself on the lower end of the social totem pole. A housemate described my cooking (which included hotdish) as “blue collar.” I drove a rusting Dodge Aspen station wagon. I had never been to Cape Cod or the Hamptons and found myself gravitating to more working-class places like New Brunswick (home of Rutgers University) I got sick and tired of seeing Mercedes cars, but I still enjoyed having friends from many different backgrounds.
I did not get a permanent job in academia and am now associated with it largely through my wife. A former insider, I stand on the outside, and I appreciate the perspective this gives me.
One other thought: let’s not forget the hatred fomented by “anti-snobs” who label those whom they don’t like as “tree-huggers” or other labels. That is a powerful force in our country.
Now, lacking a good segue, forgive me for bringing up nonmotorized transportation again, but I’m working a lot on that issue and tend to see things through its prism. It has been indirectly criticized here as a “bobo” preoccupation. My question: is the old guy in suspenders who rides his bike from the Legion to downtown at about 5 mph a bobo? No. Should he have a safe place to ride? Yes. Do I even know his name? No, but I have waved to him.
Let’s all drop the labels and reach across the divide to shake hands. That includes me.
#28
Bill Ostrem April 22, 2008 8:04 am
Sentence two of my post should read “…towards those who are NOT like me.” Sorry about that.
#29
Griff Wigley April 22, 2008 9:31 am
I fixed it, Bill.
This conversation is really forcing me to think deeper about these issues. Damn you people. I was content with shallow thinking.
The comments about the tendencies of all groups to be judgmental about other groups who are the slightest bit different rings true. I’ll often hear BMW motorcycle riders dissing the Harley crowd, and vice versa, for example.
I just skimmed the Wikipedia entries on classism, snob, liberal elite, and elitism and found them helpful, especially the latter in the section titled Elitism as a pejorative term, since, as Tony indicated in his comment above, other types of elitism are highly desirable.
For me, the Northfield elitism that bugs me the most is evident in (I’m paraphrasing now from the Wikipedia entry on elitism) people who sometimes act as if their views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight because of their intellectual and/or educational status. And I notice it most, of course, in discussion (formal and informal) about civic issues.
I think the first time I noticed it was when a group of us parents approached the school board back in the early 80s, asking that the district create an alternative elementary school. The condescension of some of the well-educated board members was shocking. The attitude was on the order of “You want a choice? How could you possibly be unhappy with our elementary schools that we’ve created? We know what’s best for children.” Result: Prairie Creek Community School, originally a private school, now (hooray!) a public charter school.
So we need to be on our guard for both creeping classism and intellectual elitism, not with namecalling or sarcasm when we notice it in others but maybe with a gentle, understanding nudge, knowing that we’re often blind to it in ourselves.
#30
john george April 22, 2008 10:08 am
Wow! This is one of the best threads you have started, Griff. I can see a common denominator in the posts I have seen so far. It is the admission that we all have tendencies toward elitism. Now, wouldn’t that be an interesting quality to rally around for unity in the city?! There are definitely differences in experience and convictions among all of us. Our choice is how we allow those differences to color our attitudes toward one another. Do we acknowledge them for what they are and choose unity in our relationships, or do we use them for separation? The choice is ours.
#31
David Ludescher April 22, 2008 10:25 am
There is a difference between the “classism” and “elitism”. One Faribault resident described it to me this way, “Faribault is the valley of reality between two mountains of conceit”. (i.e. Northfield and Owatonna).
#32
Patrick Enders April 22, 2008 10:45 am
David L,
I’m not following your point.
#33
Brendon Etter April 22, 2008 10:56 am
That seems to me to be a rather elitist statement in its own way, Dave L.
It also doesn’t clarify the difference between classism and elitism. Not sure what “conceit” means in this context. The “conceit” of feeling superior because of class? Educational attainment? Skill? Vocation?
Faribault is no more “real”, no less heaped up with its own manner of “conceit”, than Northfield or Owatonna.
Here’s what frustrates me: Kids are told to educate themselves all their lives - to better themselves, to better our society, to be engaged in our civil society in a productive, meaningful way - then, after expending this effort, getting a good education, getting involved, you are told that you are “elitist”.
Perhaps this particular Faribault resident would like an apology? If so, for what?
You could get to know someone, be the nicest person in the world, be genuinely caring, and then, when that new friend finds out you’re from (insert “elitist” town here), you would miraculously be considered “elitist”? Doesn’t follow.
#34
David Ludescher April 22, 2008 11:00 am
For a period of time, Northfield’s motto was, “A Special Place”. Even for Northfielders that proved to be a little too elitist. Nevertheless, the attitude still remains.
#35
Brendon Etter April 22, 2008 11:10 am
So community pride or positive civic mottoes are elitist? Again, it doesn’t follow.
I could see the case had Northfield’s motto been “Everywhere Else Sucks”.
#36
Bright Spencer April 22, 2008 11:22 am
We alwasy get into a fix when we start comparing ourselves or claiming we are something special when given that we are all special, what have you done lately? Or have you done anything lately to back up your claim to specialness? I think there was a popular song a few years back asking
the same question..what have you done for me lately? Lets now live on our laurels or our ancestors laurels, if that is even possible…not knowing what laurels are….I’ll be back….okay, here you go…1: an evergreen shrub or tree (Laurus nobilis of the family Lauraceae, the laurel family) of southern Europe with small yellow flowers, fruits that are ovoid blackish berries, and evergreen foliage once used by the ancient Greeks to crown victors in the Pythian games —called also bay, sweet bay2: a tree or shrub that resembles the true laurel; especially : mountain laurel3 a: a crown of laurel awarded as an honor b: a recognition of achievement : honor —usually used in plural.
So, as long as we don’t rest on our evergreen shrub too long, everything is cool.
#37
Bright Spencer April 22, 2008 11:23 am
should have been not instead of ‘now live on our laurels’ above
#38
john george April 22, 2008 11:34 am
Brendon- Good points. I think this relates back to personal attitudes, not necessarily a demographic.
David L.- I lived in Owatonna for 16 years and in Northfield now for 12 yrs. There are two different bases perceived for the elitist accusations here- Owatonna for their industry, Northfield for their education. The year the Kaplan brothers sold Owatonna Tool Co. to SPx Corp., it was said there were more millionairs per capita in Owatonna, because of the stock distributons, than in any other city in the country. I don’t know if this assesment is correct, but it was a point of pride for many people. I personally knew Buzz Kaplan, Charlie Buxton ( Federated Ins.), Jerry Wenger (Wenger Corp.) because I did work for them in their homes. Each of these men, to use an old expression from back home, were common as an old sock. There were people in the town who perceiverd them to be elitist, but they didn’t know them personally.
I think this attitude will be common in any city between those who have achieved high levels of success and those who have not. What makes a difference is in the relationships you have with people, and whether they are a threat to your own sense of well being. I think it goes back to the curent Northfield motto, “Cows, Colleges and Contentment.” When a person is content with themselves, there will be no envy. I think it is envy and jealousy that breed discontentment and separation and the accusation of elitism. And these are attitudes that each of us have self control over. As we relate to people, our own biases become evident.
#39
David Ludescher April 22, 2008 6:32 pm
I like Griff’s definition of elitism in post #30. I agree with everything he said in the blog and the subsequent posts. Let’s analyze whether Northfield is snobby, and if so why. Call it elitism, classism, bobo-ism, or snobbiness, I think there is a lot to what Griff is saying.
Northfielders are perceived as being snobs by most surrounding communities. Griff asked why that is so; and if the reputation is deserved. My question is whether we want to change that reputation.
#40
Holly Cairns April 22, 2008 7:31 pm
I think even a homeless woman can be a snob or an elist, if she’s talking with the right person about the right topic. Elitism/snobbishness is taking pride ‘to the next level,’ perhaps.
Maybe This: I’m a Swede and it’s great, and it’s cool if you are Bohemian.
Not: I’m a Swede and too bad you are a Bohemian. Or not this either: I’m a Swede and I don’t care that you are a Bohemian. etc.
Griff might have told his co-workers that it’s not nice to say such a thing about Northfielders.
#41
Patrick Enders April 22, 2008 8:02 pm
As long as Northfield has a different socioeconomic character from its neighbors, it will be considered ‘different.’ As long as part of that difference is that we have two colleges, more liberals, and a higher number of Ph.D’s than do our neighbors, that difference will probably be characterized as a derogatory description of Northfield as ‘elitism’ or ’snobbery.’
Without a significant social and demographic shift, both that difference and that stereotype will persist. Fostering positive political relations with our neighbors would help, but I wouldn’t expect it to make the stereotype go away.
As for the question of whether Northfielders of different stripes can avoid being condescending or snobbish towards each other, I would hope - as both John Thomas and John George have suggested - that we can all try to balance our personal pride with a good-sized dollop of humility, and a healthy respect for the opinions and needs of others. It’s an ongoing process, and I’m still working at it.
#42
Bright Spencer April 22, 2008 9:06 pm
In Holly’s comment, #41, she mentions people talking about being better than others, and while I am not in favor of such blather, I do not mind it nearly as much as people taking action against others by leaving them out of the processes of government and public input on private matters where invited. This kind of thing is heavy in Northfield.
I admit I have been guilty of being a Chicago snob, but only because I had been overlooked and purposely shoved off to the side so many times in this town that I took to drawing on my past experiences, as I was not to be allowed any future here in town. Be it because I don’t drink, I wore a skirt above my knees, I am an artist of which there are already too many here, or because I don’t have children, I don’t attend church in Northfield, because I am not born here, etc, etc, etc, all things which have been called out to me by others and not ideas living only in my poor old brain, there are too many things to overcome before I die to continue trying to fit in.
I hope you all work it out, even if it takes longer than I will be around to do it. Oh, it’s okay to protect your hill, but not from people who wish to do you no harm and perhaps even add a flower or two to the garden.
#43
Scott Schumacher April 22, 2008 11:04 pm
I think that the society that we live in, that’s perpetuated by government, the media, yes schools too, etc, is one where we learn at a very young age that there are “winners” and there are “losers.” Sports teams, spelling bees, grades, competition, “climbing the corporate ladder” - I think that if you look back and see these things, then it’s not a big stretch to think that we can have judgements, class distinctions, snobbery, etc.
I think that within all of the struggle to become popular, liked, a winner, known, loved, important, not invisible, etc - that unfortunately we can all be trapped with MANY MANY unmet needs. This is when we lash out, act ’snobby’, behave badly, commit violence to one another, etc.
Last year I went to see Marshall Rosenberg, the creator of Nonviolent Communication, speak at St. Thomas University. Marshall stated that “any violence committed to another is the tragic result of unmet needs.”
I think that maybe a way through these distinctions is to start asking ourselves and one another these questions:
What do we care deeply about?
What are our deepest needs?
What needs are not being met?
How can we build a community where collective needs are placed on an even level with merit, competition, the “marketplace”, etc?
Should our needs be put first?
Do the structures of our institutions within our system perpetuate our divisions and our consistent unmet needs?
Discuss.
#44
Bright Spencer April 22, 2008 11:08 pm
Nicely stated, Scott.
#45
Nathan E. Kuhlman April 23, 2008 8:01 am
Bright,
1. How are we residents of the hill to evaluate accurately who means us no harm?
2. How can we be confident that the Buckthorn and Eurasian Water Milfoil that they plant here won’t prosper so well that they choke off the indigenous plants?
#46
Holly Cairns April 23, 2008 8:09 am
Bright, you get pretty serious sometimes. Naw, that’s not how it is… there’s a few close-minded people out there, but they are everywhere. Unfortunately the close-minded also have open mouths. Sorry about that.
Scott said:
That kind of thinking, although of noble intent, breeds insecurity. We might look at it like this (and teach our kids to look at it like this):
Winners won a game, and losers dared to play. All are equal.
I am sensitive to this since (as a kid) I played on both boys and girls’ soccer teams. The guys who coached the girls said things like “Good job. You’re just doing your best. You’re not losers if you lose.” That sounds good unless you compare that to the coach of the boys’ team: “Get out there and win. You’re playing like girls. I’m going to sit you unless you get up off your butt and start playing.” (something crass like that)
I decided the message about trying to win wasn’t the evil, but rather it is what we say about effort and losing that is important.
Sidetracked. Yes, back to whether Northfielders are snobs. That includes all of Northfield, doesn’t it?
#47
Nathan E. Kuhlman April 23, 2008 8:17 am
You will never find–well not in Northfield at any rate–a better exposition of the mechanics of snobbery than Dr. Seuss’ _Sneeches_.
Probably about one percent of the human population is self-confident enough to rely on their own character and perceptions of the world, without subscribing to some variant of herd mentality. Not necessarily including myself in that one percent, by the way.
Northfield’s reputation for snobbishness is only partly deserved. The city functions as a de facto gated community for libruls–so what? In no way is it abnormal for people to congregate with persons whom they find interesting/sympathetic. There is a gravitational center for ‘cultural elite’ types because there are a lot of them already here.
What drives me nuts is when people come here because they are fleeing somewhere else (e.g. inner-ring suburbs), then lose no time trying to make the town be more like their dearly missed inner-ring suburb. I am unwilling to accept the ‘conveniences’ of suburban life at the expense of having to drive everywhere for everything.
People who have stayed in Northfield have sacrificed some of the opportunities available in larger population centers, somewhat intentionally with a view to maintaining a certain style of life. A fairly quiet style of life. Mostly, a fairly live-and-let-live style of life. We resent it when big shots come around and threaten our preserve.
#48
Bright Spencer April 23, 2008 8:37 am
Nate-Not a reader of Dr. Seuss, but I will answer your questions that our in my email but not here at LoGRoNo, so here they are…
1. How are we residents of the hill to evaluate accurately who means us no harm?
2. How can we be confident that the Buckthorn and Eurasian Water Milfoil that they plant here won’t prosper so well that they choke off the indigenous plants?
Although you may not accurately be able to determine who means no harm, you might not hang someone before they committed a crime. It is very hard to live in a community where you have come to do honest work and contribute richly when you are always being turned away. (I have a couple of good stories about living here, but they are few and far between the other ones.)
If that doesn’t suit Northfielders, they ought to do two things…first quit trying to separate “outsiders” from their money and donations and volunteer work from the person who is giving those things. And then,
shut yourselves up in a compound like the Branch Davidians.
When you have an isolationists heart, you ought not to invite the public.
#49
Bright Spencer April 23, 2008 8:38 am
Correcting an error of not seeing the questions herein. Sorry.
#50
Holly Cairns April 23, 2008 8:41 am
While I’m at it, who has read the “Beans of Egypt, Maine”? There’s an eye opener. You’ll never look at classism or elitism the same, again.
#51
Bright Spencer April 23, 2008 8:46 am
Allow me to expound. I come from one of the most successfully integrated neighborhoods in the country, and the military also housed their 5th Army families there, with a major 20,000 employee univeristy with students from just about every country in the world. We never got into this kind of discussion because where there is openess and community, there is a space for everyone. No one complains of getting choked out. And although there were probably ten times the population there, the crime rate was extremely low…and except for the daytime buses, it was very quiet.
#52
Curt Benson April 23, 2008 8:53 am
Holly, your comment about “Beans” made me think of another book about class, “Limbo”, by Alfred Lubrano.
Bill Ostrem (#28), after reading your comment about your experience at Princeton, I bet you’d appreciate this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Limbo-Blue-Collar-Roots-White-Collar-Dreams/dp/0471714399/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208958513&sr=8-1
#53
Holly Cairns April 23, 2008 9:08 am
“Limbo” looks interesting. Thanks, Curt.
#54
Curt Benson April 23, 2008 9:26 am
Here’s a brief interview with Lubrano on NPR:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1479369
#55
Patrick Enders April 23, 2008 10:09 am
Curt,
Interesting piece. Thanks.
#56
Bill Ostrem April 23, 2008 10:25 am
Curt,
Thanks for the link to Lubrano’s book on “straddlers” - people who are between two worlds. In my case this was as much regional as it was class. Midwesterners feel this in the Northeastern U.S., Southerners probably even more so.
One thing that can foster a sense of superiority is having traveled or lived somewhere else, especially somewhere else that claims to be superior in some way to where you are now. I fall into this trap myself, having lived in Chicago, New Jersey, and California, besides Minnesota - also having traveled in Europe.
The challenge is to share with people who live here what you’ve seen elsewhere, then see if agreement can be reached to make improvements or changes here. But one problem is that people don’t have access to the same experiences of having lived in place X or Y.
Griff presented this definition of elites in comment #30: “people who sometimes act as if their views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight because of their intellectual and/or educational status.” Webster’s defines elitism as “1. leadership or rule by an elite; 2. the selectivity of the elite, esp. snobbery; 3. consciousness of being or belonging to an elite.”
I think Griff’s definition of elitism is too narrowly defined by “intellectual” or “educational status” elites, though this does plague Northfield. What other elites are there? Elites of race, money, profession, status, power, ancestry, property, violence, nationality, language, etc. Let’s not forget those too, and don’t be too beguiled by those who tell you to beware of “elites” without recognizing the elites they belong to themelves.
Perhaps some of the frustration certain people have with the educational status/intellectual elites in Northfield is that those elites lay claim to power and influence that other elites want to leave for themselves.
Finally, it might be interesting to have a community meeting with a skilled facilitator that poses some of the questions that Scott brought up in comment #44. Don’t laugh at that idea too quickly. It might be very helpful; it would certainly help a group of people to get to know each other better.
It would also be interesting for people to read and discuss “Main Street,” by Sinclair Lewis, his story of Gopher Prairie, Minnesota. In what ways is Northfield like and unlike Gopher Prairie? What characters do we identify with and why? You see the old English teacher in me coming out.
#57
Ani Lovoll April 23, 2008 1:54 pm
Man, I really wish I would have started to read this when it was first posted.
Funny enough, I had a discussion about this in my politics class this morning, because about 80% of my class came from small towns in the midwest, some of which were offended by Obama’s comment, some of which were completely uninformed, and some of which understood this comment as one made on stereotypes that a lot of city folk have.
I personally have lived in all different types of living situations. I have spent a good third of my life in the city, a third of it in the suburbs, and a third of it in small town northfield.
I wish I started reading this earlier because I found myself skimming the 57 very intelligent comments on it, because I simply don’t have time in the hour between my classes.
But I would, however, like to commend Anthony Pierce on his short and simple, but convincing comment.
“I wanted the best doctor to repair my knee, am I elitist? I want the best person to be president, not someone that would have fun with my at a BBQ. (I stole that from bill mahr :P)”
I watched that part of Bill Mahr as well…
And I agree 100%.
I think the problem is that we are not elitist enough because Americans are getting so concerned with being “politically correct” and always wanting to be somewhere in the middle. You know.. “I want my steak and eggs with the steak medium, and eggs over medium, and I’m going to pay a medium price, leave a medium tip, because I am an average joe in the middle class that drives moderatly above the speed limit.”
I don’t think it would hurt us to have someone smarer than the rest of us in office. I also don’t think it would hurt us to have someone that has more money. Since if they have a lot of money and started out with very little (such as Obama’s family), they obviously know how to handle money which would be really useful in our receeding economy.
The main reason I remain an Obama supporter despite all of the mud on his face thrown by Hilary (mud created by the Republicans GIVEN to Hilary), is because he’s a radical and because he’s willing to make some changes that have been needed for years.
As far as Northfield goes…I’m not going to worry about offending people from Dundas and Faribault by saying I’m better than them in some ways. There’s a little bit of truth to stereotypes, otherwise people wouldn’t use them.
Just as Apple Valley probably says they’re better than us.
Maybe people just need to get some thicker skin.
that was quite a bit longer than I inted on writing.
whoops.
#58
Northern Letter » Blog Archive » My autobiography and views of elitism on Locally Grown Northfield April 23, 2008 3:34 pm
[…] the residents of small towns, our local blog extraordinaire, Locally Grown Northfield, hosted a discussion about snobbery and elitism Northfield-style. In the comments, see my own take on class and elitism […]
#59
David Ludescher April 23, 2008 10:51 pm
Does anyone except a snob debate the definition of snobbery? (Yours truly included.)
#60
Anne Bretts April 23, 2008 11:05 pm
David…sheer genius. Thank you.
(”Am I a snob?” seems to be the intellectual version of “Do these pants make me look fat?” The person asking usually wants reassurance, not truth.)
#61
Penny Hillemann April 24, 2008 12:20 am
Great conversation! It’s making me recall my experience coming from a lower-middle-class family and neighborhood and lucking into the opportunity to attend a wonderful private high school with kids from the wealthiest neighborhoods in San Francisco, which was exciting but pretty intimidating. When I talked with my old friends about these new classmates, and mentioned where they lived because that seemed new and different and kind of interesting, I was accused of becoming a snob. So I stopped talking about them.
Then I went to an Ivy League university, and quickly and forever learned not to talk ve