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	<title>Comments on: Guest blogger Sean Hayford O&#8217;Leary: The Sidewalks That Weren&#8217;t &#8211; Northfield&#8217;s 10 worst</title>
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	<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/</link>
	<description>The people, issues, and events of Northfield, MN</description>
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		<title>By: Sean Hayford O'Leary</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-93582</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Hayford O'Leary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-93582</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Bill, again I agree that abiding by accessibility recommendations should not be a roadblock (no pun intended), but it could guide us as to where to start. Since Poplar Street has the mildest grade, it should be the first priority. Secondarily, I think Orchard Street should be considered (since it already has right-of-way and has the signaled crossing on 5th Street).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Of course, access could also be improved if the sidewalks were continued to Armstrong Road and connected to those on Forest Avenue.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, again I agree that abiding by accessibility recommendations should not be a roadblock (no pun intended), but it could guide us as to where to start. Since Poplar Street has the mildest grade, it should be the first priority. Secondarily, I think Orchard Street should be considered (since it already has right-of-way and has the signaled crossing on 5th Street).</p>
<p>Of course, access could also be improved if the sidewalks were continued to Armstrong Road and connected to those on Forest Avenue.</p>
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		<title>By: john george</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-93531</link>
		<dc:creator>john george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-93531</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Bill- It would just be common sense to me that these guidelines would not/could not apply to sidewalks, but, unfortunately, common sense is just not too common anymore. I would side with you and Sean in the respect that having any mobility impaired person on a sidewalk is much safer than having them trying to navigate the street. Now, if we can get everyone to allow them to be sufficiently lighted, we will have a win-win solution.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill- It would just be common sense to me that these guidelines would not/could not apply to sidewalks, but, unfortunately, common sense is just not too common anymore. I would side with you and Sean in the respect that having any mobility impaired person on a sidewalk is much safer than having them trying to navigate the street. Now, if we can get everyone to allow them to be sufficiently lighted, we will have a win-win solution.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ostrem</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-93526</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ostrem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-93526</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I read Sean&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/sidewalk2/sidewalks204.htm#gra&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link on ADA requirements&lt;/a&gt; and see the 5% guideline as just that, a guideline, not an absolute rule. The text indicates that it can&#039;t be met in all cases. It does have ideas for minimizing the dangers inherent in a steep slope.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Obviously, the same dangers for a wheelchair on a steep slope exist on the street itself in those places where there are no sidewalks.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read Sean&#8217;s <a href="http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/sidewalk2/sidewalks204.htm#gra" rel="nofollow">link on ADA requirements</a> and see the 5% guideline as just that, a guideline, not an absolute rule. The text indicates that it can&#8217;t be met in all cases. It does have ideas for minimizing the dangers inherent in a steep slope.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Obviously, the same dangers for a wheelchair on a steep slope exist on the street itself in those places where there are no sidewalks.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ostrem</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-93525</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ostrem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-93525</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A ramp is very different from a sidewalk, which is usually at the same level as the street that it parallels. I&#039;d be surprised if the ADA rules, as stringent as they are, require a sidewalk to have a different slope than the street it is on. The topography of a street with buildings on it can&#039;t be altered without the costs becoming absurd. Thus I think that it would allow a sidewalk even on a steep street, even for new construction. There is only so much that can be done given the slope of the hill that the street is on.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thus I&#039;d be surprised if ADA rules would not allow sidewalks on any street in Northfield, even those on steep hills.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A ramp is very different from a sidewalk, which is usually at the same level as the street that it parallels. I&#8217;d be surprised if the ADA rules, as stringent as they are, require a sidewalk to have a different slope than the street it is on. The topography of a street with buildings on it can&#8217;t be altered without the costs becoming absurd. Thus I think that it would allow a sidewalk even on a steep street, even for new construction. There is only so much that can be done given the slope of the hill that the street is on.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thus I&#8217;d be surprised if ADA rules would not allow sidewalks on any street in Northfield, even those on steep hills.</p>
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		<title>By: john george</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-93275</link>
		<dc:creator>john george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 05:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-93275</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A correction on my info in 21.1 regarding slope of ramps. Under the new rules, the slope must be no greater that 1:12, with a maximum run between landings of 30&#039;-0&quot;. The link gives an illustration of that:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/figures/fig16.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/figures/fig16.html&lt;/a&gt;

What is not clear in the info I accessed is how this pertains to public sidewalks. I am assuming that since it is a federal mandate, then local municipalities are subject to it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A correction on my info in 21.1 regarding slope of ramps. Under the new rules, the slope must be no greater that 1:12, with a maximum run between landings of 30&#8242;-0&#8243;. The link gives an illustration of that:<br />
<a href="http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/figures/fig16.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/figures/fig16.html</a></p>
<p>What is not clear in the info I accessed is how this pertains to public sidewalks. I am assuming that since it is a federal mandate, then local municipalities are subject to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Hayford O'Leary</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-93267</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Hayford O'Leary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-93267</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Looking on the County GIS, I see Orchard St has a ~34 ft rise between 4th and 5th Streets. The distance is about 350 feet, so you could meet 1:10, but rest stops might be tricky. Orchard and Plum both have adequate width for sidewalks on both sides, though Odd Fellows Lane has a nonstandard right of way (under 40 ft; 65 is standard). The street would need to be significantly narrowed or additional right of way acquired.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As Bill rightly points out, though, none of these issues apply to Poplar St. The right of way is already there, and the slope is very mild.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking on the County GIS, I see Orchard St has a ~34 ft rise between 4th and 5th Streets. The distance is about 350 feet, so you could meet 1:10, but rest stops might be tricky. Orchard and Plum both have adequate width for sidewalks on both sides, though Odd Fellows Lane has a nonstandard right of way (under 40 ft; 65 is standard). The street would need to be significantly narrowed or additional right of way acquired.</p>
<p>As Bill rightly points out, though, none of these issues apply to Poplar St. The right of way is already there, and the slope is very mild.</p>
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		<title>By: john george</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-93265</link>
		<dc:creator>john george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-93265</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Bill- If I remember the ADA requirements correctly, the maximun slope recommended is 1&#039;-0&quot; rise 1n 10&#039;-0&quot; run, with rest points every 20&#039;-0&quot;. The thing about San Francisco &amp; Duluth is that the sidewalks were laid prior to the ADA requirements. I think that if the city &lt;em&gt;adds&lt;/em&gt; new sidewalks where none exists, then they must meet the requirements. This could be verified at City Hall.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill- If I remember the ADA requirements correctly, the maximun slope recommended is 1&#8242;-0&#8243; rise 1n 10&#8242;-0&#8243; run, with rest points every 20&#8242;-0&#8243;. The thing about San Francisco &amp; Duluth is that the sidewalks were laid prior to the ADA requirements. I think that if the city <em>adds</em> new sidewalks where none exists, then they must meet the requirements. This could be verified at City Hall.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ostrem</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-93249</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ostrem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-93249</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sean, that is a generous assessment of why these streets lack sidewalks. I&#039;m sure that not all sidewalks in San Francisco, Pittsburgh, Duluth, Stillwater, and other hilly cities meet that ADA rule. Oddfellows is not as steep as the other two streets, and the link at the end of Poplar would be mostly flat if it were installed.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean, that is a generous assessment of why these streets lack sidewalks. I&#8217;m sure that not all sidewalks in San Francisco, Pittsburgh, Duluth, Stillwater, and other hilly cities meet that ADA rule. Oddfellows is not as steep as the other two streets, and the link at the end of Poplar would be mostly flat if it were installed.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Hayford O'Leary</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-93233</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Hayford O'Leary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-93233</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Bill,
I did realize, after I responded to your comment on Northfield Nomo regarding Orchard/Plum/Odd Fellows that sidewalks may be more difficult than it would first appear. I&#039;m not sure what the grade is, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/sidewalk2/sidewalks204.htm#gra&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;for ADA compliance&lt;/a&gt; sidewalks should not exceed 5%. Now, granted, difficulty in serving everybody is no excuse for serving nobody, but it is a variable that might help explain why the streets have gone without coverage for so long.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;However, that complication makes the S. Poplar disconnection that you reference all the more irritating. Poplar already has sidewalks on the 400 block, and it&#039;s a much milder climb than the other three.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I will note that in similar situations on City streets, a sidewalk connection has been maintained. N. Linden Street has one block of street missing -- adjacent to Emmaus Church -- but still has sidewalks. A similar solution was done on the freshly disconnected W. 1st Street.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill,<br />
I did realize, after I responded to your comment on Northfield Nomo regarding Orchard/Plum/Odd Fellows that sidewalks may be more difficult than it would first appear. I&#8217;m not sure what the grade is, but <a href="http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/sidewalk2/sidewalks204.htm#gra" rel="nofollow">for ADA compliance</a> sidewalks should not exceed 5%. Now, granted, difficulty in serving everybody is no excuse for serving nobody, but it is a variable that might help explain why the streets have gone without coverage for so long.</p>
<p>However, that complication makes the S. Poplar disconnection that you reference all the more irritating. Poplar already has sidewalks on the 400 block, and it&#8217;s a much milder climb than the other three.</p>
<p>I will note that in similar situations on City streets, a sidewalk connection has been maintained. N. Linden Street has one block of street missing &#8212; adjacent to Emmaus Church &#8212; but still has sidewalks. A similar solution was done on the freshly disconnected W. 1st Street.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ostrem</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-93199</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ostrem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-93199</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The walk score where I live on Highland Ave is only 45. One big problem: besides no sidewalks in the post-50s developments, there are few destinations other than other houses to walk to. I wish Kildahl Park Pointe had put in some retail on their ground floor--a place to get your hair cut, for example.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sean, a tremendous post. You helped me to realize that there are no sidewalks connecting the northwest part of town to the Hwy 19 corridor from Odd Fellows lane all the way to Hwy 3. That&#039;s three streets without sidewalks, including Orchard and Plum Sts. And when Poplar St. was disconnected from Hwy 19, a path should have been installed between the new cul de sac and the sidewalk on Hwy 19. It&#039;s an example of how even recently we have failed to accommodate all modes of transport.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The other day I was biking up Odd Fellows and noticed a woman in a motorized chair going down the street. She was probably a Three Links resident. If this community wants to truly serve its growing number of retirees, it had better get sidewalks on that street.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;David, I&#039;m skeptical that Woodley St. sidewalks would cost millions, esp. where the topography is flat and the right of way is already owned by a public entitity.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I&#039;ve been doing volunteer research and writing on complete streets for the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mncompletestreets.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Minnesota Complete Streets Coalition&lt;/a&gt;, and I&#039;ve concluded that sidewalks and other &quot;CS&quot; features make financial sense. I just published a &lt;a href=&quot;http://williamostrem.net/nl/2009/11/02/obesogenic-environment/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;blog post&lt;/a&gt; with data on the costs of physical inactivity and obesity, taken from a scholarly book on exercise science and sports medicine. About 10 percent of health care costs are directly attributable to physical inactivity and obesity. That&#039;s a conservative estimate that doesn&#039;t count the indirect costs to individuals, employers, and governments from lost worker productivity, etc. (or other costs of an auto-dependent society: higher gas prices, wars in oil-rich regions, inefficient land use, etc.) The health care costs alone are billions and billions of dollars on a national scale, millions on a local scale.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;See also the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.completestreets.org/complete-streets-fundamentals/factsheets/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fact sheets&lt;/a&gt; published by the National Complete Streets Coalition.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;True fiscal conservatism means returning to a more traditional city design, with sidewalks, multi-use zoning, and higher densities. This will save our society money in the long run. It&#039;s for that reason that the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/index.cfm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;National Business Group on Health &lt;/a&gt;supports sidewalks, paths, and similar facilities to help keep us healthy. Here&#039;s an excerpt from one of their &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/benefitstopics/topics/0058.cfm?topic=0058&amp;desc=Obesity%20and%20Overweight&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;publications on obesity&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Two-thirds of American adults are overweight or obese, and the prevalence of obesity in children has tripled since 1980. Obesity is the second leading cause of preventable death in the U.S. The cost of obesity to private employers is conservatively estimated at $13B per year.&lt;sup&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/benefitstopics/topics/0058.cfm?topic=0058&amp;desc=Obesity%20and%20Overweight#1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; Obesity and overweight are responsible for an estimated 27% of annual trend in medical premiums paid by private employers.&lt;sup&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/benefitstopics/topics/0058.cfm?topic=0058&amp;desc=Obesity%20and%20Overweight#2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;2&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/benefitstopics/topics/0058.cfm?topic=0058&amp;desc=Obesity%20and%20Overweight#2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;
&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;David, I hope you and the Chamber will take advantage of the resources offered by this group. They are helping businesses to keep health care costs down and employees healthy.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The walk score where I live on Highland Ave is only 45. One big problem: besides no sidewalks in the post-50s developments, there are few destinations other than other houses to walk to. I wish Kildahl Park Pointe had put in some retail on their ground floor--a place to get your hair cut, for example.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Sean, a tremendous post. You helped me to realize that there are no sidewalks connecting the northwest part of town to the Hwy 19 corridor from Odd Fellows lane all the way to Hwy 3. That&#8217;s three streets without sidewalks, including Orchard and Plum Sts. And when Poplar St. was disconnected from Hwy 19, a path should have been installed between the new cul de sac and the sidewalk on Hwy 19. It&#8217;s an example of how even recently we have failed to accommodate all modes of transport.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The other day I was biking up Odd Fellows and noticed a woman in a motorized chair going down the street. She was probably a Three Links resident. If this community wants to truly serve its growing number of retirees, it had better get sidewalks on that street.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>David, I&#8217;m skeptical that Woodley St. sidewalks would cost millions, esp. where the topography is flat and the right of way is already owned by a public entitity.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been doing volunteer research and writing on complete streets for the <a href="http://www.mncompletestreets.org/" rel="nofollow">Minnesota Complete Streets Coalition</a>, and I&#8217;ve concluded that sidewalks and other &#8220;CS&#8221; features make financial sense. I just published a <a href="http://williamostrem.net/nl/2009/11/02/obesogenic-environment/" rel="nofollow">blog post</a> with data on the costs of physical inactivity and obesity, taken from a scholarly book on exercise science and sports medicine. About 10 percent of health care costs are directly attributable to physical inactivity and obesity. That&#8217;s a conservative estimate that doesn&#8217;t count the indirect costs to individuals, employers, and governments from lost worker productivity, etc. (or other costs of an auto-dependent society: higher gas prices, wars in oil-rich regions, inefficient land use, etc.) The health care costs alone are billions and billions of dollars on a national scale, millions on a local scale.</p>
<p>See also the <a href="http://www.completestreets.org/complete-streets-fundamentals/factsheets/" rel="nofollow">fact sheets</a> published by the National Complete Streets Coalition.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>True fiscal conservatism means returning to a more traditional city design, with sidewalks, multi-use zoning, and higher densities. This will save our society money in the long run. It&#8217;s for that reason that the <a href="http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/index.cfm" rel="nofollow">National Business Group on Health </a>supports sidewalks, paths, and similar facilities to help keep us healthy. Here&#8217;s an excerpt from one of their <a href="http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/benefitstopics/topics/0058.cfm?topic=0058&amp;desc=Obesity%20and%20Overweight" rel="nofollow">publications on obesity</a>:</p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote>
<p>Two-thirds of American adults are overweight or obese, and the prevalence of obesity in children has tripled since 1980. Obesity is the second leading cause of preventable death in the U.S. The cost of obesity to private employers is conservatively estimated at $13B per year.<sup><a href="http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/benefitstopics/topics/0058.cfm?topic=0058&amp;desc=Obesity%20and%20Overweight#1" rel="nofollow">1</a></sup> Obesity and overweight are responsible for an estimated 27% of annual trend in medical premiums paid by private employers.<sup><a href="http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/benefitstopics/topics/0058.cfm?topic=0058&amp;desc=Obesity%20and%20Overweight#2" rel="nofollow">2</a></sup></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p><sup><a href="http://www.businessgrouphealth.org/benefitstopics/topics/0058.cfm?topic=0058&amp;desc=Obesity%20and%20Overweight#2" rel="nofollow"><br />
</a></sup></p>
</blockquote>
<p>David, I hope you and the Chamber will take advantage of the resources offered by this group. They are helping businesses to keep health care costs down and employees healthy.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross Currier</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92813</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Currier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92813</guid>
		<description>P. S. The NDDC office got a 92 out of 100...

...a &quot;Walkers&#039; Paradise&quot;.

So, I guess that means that downtown Northfield is a good place to live, work and play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P. S. The NDDC office got a 92 out of 100&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;a &#8220;Walkers&#8217; Paradise&#8221;.</p>
<p>So, I guess that means that downtown Northfield is a good place to live, work and play.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross Currier</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92812</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Currier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92812</guid>
		<description>Hey Sean, maybe you and Bill Ostrem are already aware of this resource, but I thought the &quot;Walk Score&quot; link in this post was kind of interesting: http://www.cnt.org/news/2009/10/06/promoting-walkable-neighborhoods/?utm_source=CNT+Update+list&amp;utm_campaign=7e3a275dc7-October_2009_CNT_Update10_23_2009&amp;utm_medium=email</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Sean, maybe you and Bill Ostrem are already aware of this resource, but I thought the &#8220;Walk Score&#8221; link in this post was kind of interesting: <a href="http://www.cnt.org/news/2009/10/06/promoting-walkable-neighborhoods/?utm_source=CNT+Update+list&#038;utm_campaign=7e3a275dc7-October_2009_CNT_Update10_23_2009&#038;utm_medium=email" rel="nofollow">http://www.cnt.org/news/2009/10/06/promoting-walkable-neighborhoods/?utm_source=CNT+Update+list&#038;utm_campaign=7e3a275dc7-October_2009_CNT_Update10_23_2009&#038;utm_medium=email</a></p>
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		<title>By: Carol Overland</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92711</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol Overland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 21:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92711</guid>
		<description>Sean - great post, and as you can see, sidewalks are one of those hot issues in Northfield.  You might get a charge out of the Northfield News archives at the library during the sidewalk referendum time.  It was just before I got to Northfield, and as I understand it, that referendum was as contentious or more than the Target one.  I regard sidewalks as a necessity, like public schools, and the notion of a referendum struck me as odd.  Anyway, some of that history might help make sense of the responses you&#039;ll be getting here!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean -- great post, and as you can see, sidewalks are one of those hot issues in Northfield.  You might get a charge out of the Northfield News archives at the library during the sidewalk referendum time.  It was just before I got to Northfield, and as I understand it, that referendum was as contentious or more than the Target one.  I regard sidewalks as a necessity, like public schools, and the notion of a referendum struck me as odd.  Anyway, some of that history might help make sense of the responses you&#8217;ll be getting here!</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Hayford O'Leary</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92544</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Hayford O'Leary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92544</guid>
		<description>Felicity, you mean South Division/MN 246, right? (Goodhue County 9 until Dennison.) I know that Mn/DOT sets the speed for that road, and apparently 55 is what the deemed appropriate when the Middle School was built. The usual rule, as I understand it, is that speed is set to what 80% of the drivers are driving at or under. In the case of this road, that may actually be the case (I don&#039;t think Highway 3, though it&#039;s much better-equipped for 55 mph traffic, would meet this standard if a speed study were done today).

That doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s safe, but it does indicate that there&#039;s more going on. A large part of the problem with South Division, I think, actually relates to sidewalks. There are shared-use paths until the Middle School, but they&#039;re set way too far back from the road and totally out of sight of drivers. Though they&#039;re good for ped/bike safety, they&#039;re totally useless for traffic calming. The lack of any pedestrian crossing south of Jefferson Parkway also contributes to this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felicity, you mean South Division/MN 246, right? (Goodhue County 9 until Dennison.) I know that Mn/DOT sets the speed for that road, and apparently 55 is what the deemed appropriate when the Middle School was built. The usual rule, as I understand it, is that speed is set to what 80% of the drivers are driving at or under. In the case of this road, that may actually be the case (I don&#8217;t think Highway 3, though it&#8217;s much better-equipped for 55 mph traffic, would meet this standard if a speed study were done today).</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s safe, but it does indicate that there&#8217;s more going on. A large part of the problem with South Division, I think, actually relates to sidewalks. There are shared-use paths until the Middle School, but they&#8217;re set way too far back from the road and totally out of sight of drivers. Though they&#8217;re good for ped/bike safety, they&#8217;re totally useless for traffic calming. The lack of any pedestrian crossing south of Jefferson Parkway also contributes to this.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Hayford O'Leary</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92543</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Hayford O'Leary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92543</guid>
		<description>David,
I say it&#039;s only &quot;marginally relevant&quot; because, as you&#039;ve demonstrated in your own comments here, it&#039;s only a marginal part of the decision-making process. Were cost the only issue, why bring up snow removal? Or &quot;that people did not want to have a sidewalk in front of their house&quot;? Cost is not the only thing at play here.

Also, if cost were the only issue, let&#039;s note that even with streets, there are other things to cut first. We pay to pave space for on-street parking when it&#039;s used very little in newer neighborhoods. We pay for the luxury of the width two-way streets when one-way would suffice. We pay, again, for curb and gutter in areas that the density doesn&#039;t require it. These are all things I would cut before sidewalks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,<br />
I say it&#8217;s only &#8220;marginally relevant&#8221; because, as you&#8217;ve demonstrated in your own comments here, it&#8217;s only a marginal part of the decision-making process. Were cost the only issue, why bring up snow removal? Or &#8220;that people did not want to have a sidewalk in front of their house&#8221;? Cost is not the only thing at play here.</p>
<p>Also, if cost were the only issue, let&#8217;s note that even with streets, there are other things to cut first. We pay to pave space for on-street parking when it&#8217;s used very little in newer neighborhoods. We pay for the luxury of the width two-way streets when one-way would suffice. We pay, again, for curb and gutter in areas that the density doesn&#8217;t require it. These are all things I would cut before sidewalks.</p>
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		<title>By: john george</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92541</link>
		<dc:creator>john george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92541</guid>
		<description>Your comments are really true. My son has a degree in Landscape Architecture, and part of their emphasis is on city planning. Now that so much has been done with asymetrical non-grid street layouts, people are finding them to be confusing and frustrating. Has anyone tried to find a location in Eden Prairie? You can see a building in the distance, but not have the slightest idea how to get there. New Brighton is very similar. The old grid system is proving to be the best street layout. Sidewalks, street lights and front porches all make for safer communities. David L. has a good point that all this costs money, but perhaps these are some things that are worth sacrificing some leisure time and disposable income to obtain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your comments are really true. My son has a degree in Landscape Architecture, and part of their emphasis is on city planning. Now that so much has been done with asymetrical non-grid street layouts, people are finding them to be confusing and frustrating. Has anyone tried to find a location in Eden Prairie? You can see a building in the distance, but not have the slightest idea how to get there. New Brighton is very similar. The old grid system is proving to be the best street layout. Sidewalks, street lights and front porches all make for safer communities. David L. has a good point that all this costs money, but perhaps these are some things that are worth sacrificing some leisure time and disposable income to obtain.</p>
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		<title>By: Felicity Enders</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92535</link>
		<dc:creator>Felicity Enders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92535</guid>
		<description>A related topic is the speed limit around schools.  The speed limit coming into town on route 9 (from the south/east) doesn&#039;t get down to 40 until after one has passed the middle school.  Where is the emphasis on safety there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A related topic is the speed limit around schools.  The speed limit coming into town on route 9 (from the south/east) doesn&#8217;t get down to 40 until after one has passed the middle school.  Where is the emphasis on safety there?</p>
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		<title>By: David Ludescher</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92533</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ludescher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92533</guid>
		<description>Sean:  I don&#039;t know how, why, or from where the idea that economics is only marginally relevant comes.  

We had a Chamber forum this morning.  I am hearing some of the same arguments from the elected officials.  Money does matter.  It is the single most important part of any government project, as it is of all of our consumer spending.  For example, there is a headlong rush to build a bike trail without any regard for the costs.  Other projects like the Safety Center and the library seem to be on similar paths.    

Would you prefer that we build sidewalks every place in town and not have money for a Safety Center or a library expansion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean:  I don&#8217;t know how, why, or from where the idea that economics is only marginally relevant comes.  </p>
<p>We had a Chamber forum this morning.  I am hearing some of the same arguments from the elected officials.  Money does matter.  It is the single most important part of any government project, as it is of all of our consumer spending.  For example, there is a headlong rush to build a bike trail without any regard for the costs.  Other projects like the Safety Center and the library seem to be on similar paths.    </p>
<p>Would you prefer that we build sidewalks every place in town and not have money for a Safety Center or a library expansion?</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Bilek</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92529</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Bilek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92529</guid>
		<description>Very well said Rob.  Your&#039;re a man ahead of your time.  years ago I read Suburban Nation.  the authors pointed out the benefits of sidewalks and connecting neighbors.  They argued that it actually improved neighborhood safety.  Fewer break ins and increased property values.  Imagine that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well said Rob.  Your&#8217;re a man ahead of your time.  years ago I read Suburban Nation.  the authors pointed out the benefits of sidewalks and connecting neighbors.  They argued that it actually improved neighborhood safety.  Fewer break ins and increased property values.  Imagine that.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Hayford O'Leary</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92524</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Hayford O'Leary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92524</guid>
		<description>David:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Given current economic times, it is almost impossible to justify putting sidewalks in existing areas that don’t have them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not sure if you&#039;re referring to sidewalks as their own project or sidewalks being installed (new or replacement) as part of a larger infrastructure project. In fact, the West First Street project does include sidewalk in a few blocks that did not previously have coverage (as did the East Fifth project a few years ago, as Rob references). The &quot;economic times&quot; are only marginally relevant. Sidewalks are not a luxury; if necessary, the whole project should be put on hold rather than allowing it to be done poorly by serving only cars.

If you&#039;re referring to sidewalks as their own project, again, it has little to do with the &quot;economic times.&quot; People are &lt;em&gt;always&lt;/em&gt; reluctant to put in sidewalks on their own project. While proper sidewalk coverage may not be realistic for Eveleth, County 1, and S. Highway 3, &lt;em&gt;some&lt;/em&gt; retrofit is in order before the roads undergo larger reconstruction. A shared-use path in the ditch is not ideal, but it&#039;s relatively low cost and better than nothing.

Rob -- an excellent post, and it also raises the issue of overall street and community design. You can have a network of dead-end culs de sac totally covered with sidewalks, but they&#039;re not particularly useful if they don&#039;t provide efficient pedestrian movement. Only a grid or modified grid does this well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David:</p>
<blockquote><p>Given current economic times, it is almost impossible to justify putting sidewalks in existing areas that don’t have them.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure if you&#8217;re referring to sidewalks as their own project or sidewalks being installed (new or replacement) as part of a larger infrastructure project. In fact, the West First Street project does include sidewalk in a few blocks that did not previously have coverage (as did the East Fifth project a few years ago, as Rob references). The &#8220;economic times&#8221; are only marginally relevant. Sidewalks are not a luxury; if necessary, the whole project should be put on hold rather than allowing it to be done poorly by serving only cars.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re referring to sidewalks as their own project, again, it has little to do with the &#8220;economic times.&#8221; People are <em>always</em> reluctant to put in sidewalks on their own project. While proper sidewalk coverage may not be realistic for Eveleth, County 1, and S. Highway 3, <em>some</em> retrofit is in order before the roads undergo larger reconstruction. A shared-use path in the ditch is not ideal, but it&#8217;s relatively low cost and better than nothing.</p>
<p>Rob &#8212; an excellent post, and it also raises the issue of overall street and community design. You can have a network of dead-end culs de sac totally covered with sidewalks, but they&#8217;re not particularly useful if they don&#8217;t provide efficient pedestrian movement. Only a grid or modified grid does this well.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Hardy</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92521</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Hardy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92521</guid>
		<description>My first blog post, back in August 2007, was on &lt;a href=&quot;http://rbhardy3rd.blogspot.com/2007/08/sidewalks.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;sidewalks&lt;/a&gt;.  Just mentioning this since Griff is all about &lt;a href=&quot;http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13271/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;links to previous discussions&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My first blog post, back in August 2007, was on <a href="http://rbhardy3rd.blogspot.com/2007/08/sidewalks.html" rel="nofollow">sidewalks</a>.  Just mentioning this since Griff is all about <a href="http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13271/" rel="nofollow">links to previous discussions</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: john george</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92518</link>
		<dc:creator>john george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92518</guid>
		<description>Jerry- I am all for sidewalks, and I did not mean to imply that this was some inconvenioence. I was only responding to your extra time estimate.
&quot;How much extra work would a sidewalk add? 10-20%&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry- I am all for sidewalks, and I did not mean to imply that this was some inconvenioence. I was only responding to your extra time estimate.<br />
&#8220;How much extra work would a sidewalk add? 10-20%&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Bilek</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92515</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Bilek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92515</guid>
		<description>John,
Because your neighbor has a corner lot is this really a reason not to build sidewalks to our public schools?  homeowners are expected to keep their yard neat in the warm months and driveway and sidewalks clear of snow in the winter.  It&#039;s part of the cost of ownership.  I think it is a weak argument to suggest some people should not have this responsibility and kids should have to walk to school in the street because your neighbor has a corner lot and shoveling would be an inconvenience. I realize that is not what your are directly saying, but it is very much implied in your comment.  I completely understand how much shoveling is required is dependent on the size and shape of your yard.  I was throwing out an estimate that probably fits most homes in town. I shovel one of the largest sidewalks in town.  I think David&#039;s cost argument is much stronger as I stated earlier and needs to be considered before any action is taken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,<br />
Because your neighbor has a corner lot is this really a reason not to build sidewalks to our public schools?  homeowners are expected to keep their yard neat in the warm months and driveway and sidewalks clear of snow in the winter.  It&#8217;s part of the cost of ownership.  I think it is a weak argument to suggest some people should not have this responsibility and kids should have to walk to school in the street because your neighbor has a corner lot and shoveling would be an inconvenience. I realize that is not what your are directly saying, but it is very much implied in your comment.  I completely understand how much shoveling is required is dependent on the size and shape of your yard.  I was throwing out an estimate that probably fits most homes in town. I shovel one of the largest sidewalks in town.  I think David&#8217;s cost argument is much stronger as I stated earlier and needs to be considered before any action is taken.</p>
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		<title>By: john george</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92489</link>
		<dc:creator>john george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92489</guid>
		<description>Jerry- How much extra shoveling/blowing is involved depends on the location of the lot. My neighbor has a corner lot, and without measuring it exactly, I would estimate his sidewalk area is 75% of his driveway, and he has a three-car garage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry- How much extra shoveling/blowing is involved depends on the location of the lot. My neighbor has a corner lot, and without measuring it exactly, I would estimate his sidewalk area is 75% of his driveway, and he has a three-car garage.</p>
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		<title>By: David Ludescher</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/13263/comment-page-1/#comment-92481</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ludescher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/?p=13263#comment-92481</guid>
		<description>Sean:  Given current economic times, it is almost impossible to justify putting sidewalks in existing areas that don&#039;t have them.

My first preference would be to have the schools work with the City to identify where sidewalks are most needed for children who are walking.  Almost eveyone else has a choice about walking and where they want to walk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean:  Given current economic times, it is almost impossible to justify putting sidewalks in existing areas that don&#8217;t have them.</p>
<p>My first preference would be to have the schools work with the City to identify where sidewalks are most needed for children who are walking.  Almost eveyone else has a choice about walking and where they want to walk.</p>
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