Yesterday’s Strib has a letter to the editor by Northfielder and frequent LoGroNo commenter, John George, on “how earthquakes can be God’s judgment for sin.” (See full text below.) I’m hoping John will chime in here with a longer explanation.
As an atheist, it makes no sense to me, of course, and I last blogged about God’s role in natural disasters back in 2007.
But for those of you who do believe in God and who might quickly dismiss John’s assertions, consider how often you pray or participate in prayers that ask God to intercede in some way in your physical world or the physical world of others.
Praying to God to get you a job, to keep your child safe, or to heal a friend’s cancer assumes that God has fantastic power to reach inside and manipulate the economy, a potential attacker’s damaged emotions/brain, or the diseased cells of someone’s body. This is really no different than believing that God can reach inside the earth to manipulate its tectonic plates.
I’m guessing that most of Northfield’s ministers and members of their congregations would reject John’s assertion that the Haiti earthquake had anything to do with sins of Haitian or Americans. Yet I’m guessing that most regularly engage in intercessory or petitionary prayers.
And as I wrote in another 2007 blog post, I think that’s a bastardization of what Jesus meant when he said, “Ask and you shall receive.”
John’s letter to the editor:
Update 6:37 am: I’ve added the scriptural references that John says were edited out of his original letter:
There have been several comments submitted about the Rev. Pat Robertson’s seemingly calloused opinion that this earthquake in Haiti was a result of sin. I read a CNN report this week in which their reporters visited some Haitian churches. The sermon topic in each church was about how earthquakes can be God’s judgment for sin. Hmmm. Do these local pastors have the courage to say something we refuse to admit?
There is a passage in Luke 13, NAS:Luke {13:4} "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?”
{13:5} "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." 2002 (C) Bible.
The thing we Americans refuse to recognize is that our sin contributed to this disaster. How about it, Americans? When are we going to repent?
JOHN GEORGE, NORTHFIELD, MINN.
Griff- Can you check your spam filter for my comment? I must have an offending link format in it. If it isn’t there, then I’ll try to reassemble it. Thanks.
Alas, John, I don’t see it anywhere. Can you try again? Apologies!
John…in the strib letter you wrote:
“I read a CNN report this week in which their reporters visited some Haitian churches. The sermon topic in each church was about how earthquakes can be God’s judgment for sin. Hmmm. Do these local pastors have the courage to say something we refuse to admit?”
I think the pastors, local and otherwise, who say disaster is visited on humanity because of sin are self-serving religous thugs. Their job is to keep the fear of God in their congregations. In doing so they insure that they will remain the keepers of the key to salvation from God’s wrath. And while doing so collect plenty of cash in the process. This isn’t religion, it’s a protection racket.
William, it doesn’t help to use phrases like “religious thugs” here. I know you weren’t directing it at John but it sets a harsh tone and would likely prevent any said pastors from participating.
I’ve added the scriptural references to John’s original letter that he says were edited out by the Strib.
Griff- Thanks for checking. I have no idea what I did wrong to lose it. I’ll see if I have time today to reconstruct it. Thanks for adding the scripture reference. At least I don’t have to do that.
William- Your comment about pastors, “…Their job is to keep the fear of God in their congregations,” well, yes, that is their job, but not for the motivations you suggest. Salvation is a simple, free gift.
Griff: Now that the Biblical reference has been added, do you want to change the post?
David, do you mean that my use of “Be careful” in the headline infers that some here may be likewise smitten?
Griff- I don’t think you need to change anything in the post. You pegged the main focus of Robertson’s comments and the public reaction to them. Good job.
John,
I’m sorry your comment got lost, as I’d like to understand what you’re actually saying in your Strib letter — with or without the Biblical quotation.
In particular, what do you think of the Rev Robertson’s views? And do you believe that the Haiti quake is a form of divine punishment? If so, for whose offense(s)? If we’re all culpable, why should the Haitians take the rap?
Paul Z.- You raise some very good points, as always. As far as what I think of Rev. Robertson’s comments, I would defer to the commentary I quoted in post #7. Even though his comments may have some credibility in the spiritual realm, I don’t think they were well rendered. There is a general effect that the fall of man has had on creation best summed up in Romans 8:22, “For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.” Because we live in a fallen world, we will suffer the effects this has had on creation.
In regards to Haiti, specifically, when you build cities on a seismically active part of the Earth’s surface, it shouldn’t be surprising that an earthquake will hit. The point the commentary made is that you need to be prepared, and I agree.
Ecclesiates 7: 2 & 4 has some wisdom for us in our own response to this tragedy.
V. 2:It is better to go to a house of mourningThan to go to a house of feasting,Because that is the end of every man,And the living takes it to heart.
V. 4:The mind of the wise is in the house of mourning,While the mind of fools is in the house of pleasure.
These are a couple reasons I asked the questions I did in the last paragraph of my editorial comment.
It is always interesting to me how writers comments printed in the Strib compare to what was actually submitted. My contribution is a case in point. Without the scripture reference, the conclusion I draw doesn’t make a lot of sense, so I appreciate the opportunity to expand upon it here on LGN.
There is an interesting commentary I have linked here:
http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/25520/eVerseID/25524
It sums up pretty much my interpretation of this passage of scripture and the tragic events in Haiti. A couple of excerpts I resonate with:
“In Luke 13:1-5, Jesus took advantage of two local tragedies to make the point that, in a major way, all sins and all sinners are equal. The incident of the collapsed tower was in all likelihood a time-and-chance accident. However, Jesus alluded to those who died as being sinners, and He implied that those in His audience were also sinners who deserved to die—and would, unless they repented.
Jesus’ point is that, while it is not our responsibility to judge the degree of sinfulness of those who die suddenly and violently, it presents us with a golden opportunity to meditate on the state of our character and standing before God. We may be in just as much danger as those we regard as being very wicked!”
Just to point out, also, the Greek word that the KJV tramnslates as “sinner” actually translates “culprit,” as in the NASV I quoted. The assumption the KJV writers interjected is that we are all born under the curse of Adam’s transgression, as the commentator espresses above.
the biggest sinners in the world are the most well off… how do you reconcile that.
Leaving theological considerations aside, John, when you say “The thing we Americans refuse to recognize is that our sin contributed to this disaster. How about it, Americans? When are we going to repent?”, are you referring to the history of our policies in Haiti? Could the word “sin” be replaced by “our historical political and economic policies”?
Jane- A person can apply historical events to present day conditions however they are applicable, but that is not the meaning I am intending here. I am simply saying what Jesus said in Luke 13:5. We need to be aware of our own fallen condition and how continuing in that brings us under the same judgement.
John, your Strib posting is far more dogmatic than your further explanation here. Initially you say sin was ‘causal’ in the earthquake (of course, you would have to be really close to God to know this) and then later you say the earthquake is ’cause for reflection’ on sin. Which is your real opinion? I would tread carefully on stepping into the role of God yourself and explaining his actions … He frowns upon men speaking as if they have ubiquitous powers and knowledge.
David H.- I don’t think you are quite connecting with my statement, “…Rev. Pat Robertson’s seemingly calloused opinion that this earthquake in Haiti was a result of sin.” In his comments, he said specifically that the earthquake was a response to their commitment to animism and the worship of the creation rather than the Creator. That is his position, not mine. I was trying to differentiate between that opinion and the general effect that the original sin has on creation. That is a little hard to accomplish in a short, concise letter that the Strib would actually print. That is why I treasure the opportunity to expand upon it here.
John… Priests, shamans, witch doctors, etc., have explained disasters (mass or personal) as God’s punishment for thousands of years. But the fact is they do not know if God is punishing people or not. Preaching that this punishment exists and taking material reward for selling a cure for it, is, to me, a protection racket.
I think I understand the two verses: Bad things happen; repent or perish. Ok fine…that’s more of a positive message. But are you suggesting that God sent the earthquake so I’d take the hint and repent?
William- You express a common misconception regarding disasters- that God “sends” then in response to a specific transgression. As I said to Paul Z., if a person builds cities in a seismically active area, I think they should expect earthquakes. I stand by my point that we do not know when our time is up, and since it is written in Hebrews 9:27, “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,” then I think it is prudent to be prepared as much as we can.
John,
That seems to suggest that the bad events aren’t precipitated by the perceived sins, after all.
Patrick- That is my take on it.
I have only commented on LG once before, and I can’t remember on what topic I’m sure it was very important to me at the time. This post struck me with the need to speak up and share what I believe. I am a christian and believe the Bible is God’s guide to us and take it as literal truth and fact.
Yes God does have the power to cause earthquakes, fire, death, flood destroy anything, but God said he would not destroy the earth again so he won’t. As for people praying for healing, jobs, etc we can ask for anything but God will only gives us what we need. We may not like his decision but it is divine and he has a greater good plan.
We are all going to be judged and punished for our own sin, believer or nonbeliever. My sin will not bring judgement or punishment onto another I am accountable for my own sins. Once Jesus died on the cross the practices of the old Testament were over we now have the ability the ask for forgiveness, receive it, and change without punishment.
As for comments like Anthony’s “the biggest sinners in the world are the most well off” Since we have been talking about God’s punishment on us for sin we need to understand how he views sin and know what his terms and measures are. God views all sin as equal there is no scale one is not worse than another. In addition once you have truly asked for forgiveness that sin is gone and leaves no mark on you in Gods eyes. We cannot say he is more sinful than me because he is a murder and I just cheated a little on my taxes, it is all the same to God and will bring the judgement of his choosing. I believe God puts a lot of measure on ones heart not the sinful action itself.
Amy- Thanks for stepping out again. Very good comments.
Deep, deep issues of theodicy (the problem of evil and injustice) and omnipotence (an all powerful deity) and difficult to discuss in a blog forum, but let me wade in.
I’m not a pastor, but I’m pretty involved at Bethel Lutheran and with the ELCA clergy of Northfield/Faribault. I’m sure that not a one of these would suggest that God caused the hurricane, much less as a response to human sin either in Haiti or the US. John George and Pat Robertson represent a significantly different brand of Christianity that assumes a divine being causes any and all events, even catastrophes, and must have a reason for doing so. To other Christians, it ain’t that simple.
For the participants of the Blue Monday theology table today (a gathering of ELCA clergy), God was not in the hurricane but in the response of volunteers, donors, and the tears of a saddened humanity.
.-= (Obie Holmen is a blogger. See a recent post titled A Wretched Man novel: 3rd Review is in) =-.
Obie- Why do you lump me in with Pat Robertson when I specifically said I did not agree with his theological application?
John,
I apologize. As soon as I pushed the submit button, I wished I could take it back and remove your name. Sorry.
.-= (Obie Holmen is a blogger. See a recent post titled A Wretched Man novel: 3rd Review is in) =-.
Obie- No offense taken. I fall into the same trap many times myself. I know you and I differ on many interpretaions of scripture, but I do appreciate engaging your ideas. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Obie, how many of the Northfield clergy gathered at GBM with you this morning believe in intercessory and petionary prayers, as I described in my post?
I’m guessing they ALL do.
And therefore, that’s really no different than asserting that God causes/controls hurricanes and earthquakes.
Griff,
Prayer. Another deep subject not amenable to explanation or exploration by sound bite or the blog format. I think you probably oversimplify the views of the “theology table”, and you probably overestimate the degree of consensus of this group about prayer--or other theological matters.
I’ll drop by your morning office one day and try to share what I think, which isn’t necessarily what the others think. I hasten to add that there is a heavy dose of agnosticism in my views, which is to say that I don’t know. I wonder. I hope. I doubt.
Allow me to quote myself from my forthcoming novel. The speaker is a fictionalized character, a Hebrew rabbi named Eli the sage who says the following to his young protege (the one who would become Paul the apostle):
“Self doubt is the blossom of wisdom. Nurture it with awe and wonder. We must all pursue the same question, but we err if we believe we have discovered the answer. As soon as we name the one whose name is unknown, we create the one who created us.”
See you soon.
.-= (Obie Holmen is a blogger. See a recent post titled Prop 8 trial reveals abuses of reparative therapy) =-.
I blame this shitty weather on this threads sins
I have always felt that the best explanation for God’s role in disasters or misfortune is that He gives believers the strength to deal with their struggles and not that He deliberatelly causes those events. I believe that to think that he dips into everyday life to fiddle with peoples’ lives is a childlike view of Biblical teachings.
So far as I can tell, Luke 13:1-5 pretty much completely rejects the “people are being punished for sin” model of disasters. It seems mostly to serve to help Pat Robertson feel smug (and no one, I think, should be surprised to see Robertson ignoring something Jesus said).
So there is, at least within my religion, a pretty definite assertion that, no, disasters are not punishments for sin. There are similar statements elsewhere.
Good point, Peter.
John, why did you send your letter to the Strib editor?
.-= (Holly Cairns is a blogger. See a recent post titled Democrats: Please don’t use the word “TEABAGGER”) =-.
Holly- I submitted this to the Strib in response to a couple letters lambasting Robertson as being insensitive and out to lunch.
Robertson is insensitive and out to lunch.
.-= (Obie Holmen is a blogger. See a recent post titled Prop 8 trial reveals abuses of reparative therapy) =-.
John: I’m still a little confused. When you say, “… our sin contributed to this disaster…” are you saying that original sin causes us to understand evil? What is “our sin” and “this disaster”.
David L.- I’m not sure I completely understand your question, but I will take a stab at an answer. When I refer to “original sin”, I am encompasing the fallen nature of man. The disobedience of Adam has become a legacy for us. We inherit the predisposition to sin, so our sin is added into the effects of the original disobedience. When the scripture says that Jesus died and rose for the sin of the whole world, that is a collective term including my sin. I am using that concept to say that my sin has as much responsibility as those of the rest of the world for the tragedy in Haiti. Did I get close to what you were asking?
Oh, nice how you pull the last post title for my blog. Eeks. Really, this “earthquake to smite” does not relate to my last blog post.
.-= (Holly Cairns is a blogger. See a recent post titled Democrats: Please don’t use the word “TEABAGGER”) =-.
John, a better message than the one Robertson is using is: God is Love.
“God is Smite” doesn’t sit well with me. Robertson’s timing was cruel. I saw mass graves on MSNBC.com today (seriously, scratch my eyes out!). Those people weren’t any worse than you, Pat, or me. Or I. Is it I?
.-= (Holly Cairns is a blogger. See a recent post titled Democrats: Please don’t use the word “TEABAGGER”) =-.
Holly- I’m not defending Robertson’s gaff, but I don’t think we should miss the intent of the scripture in this case. Luke 13:5, “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” 2002 (C) Bible. It is still an apt admonition for us today. One concern I have is that we do not slide into what I call “slopp’e agap’e.” (I render it that way since “sloppy” does not rhyme with the Greek pronunciation of “agape.”) The philosophy of “I’m OK. You’re OK.” is not a Christian concept. “I’m a sinner. You’re a sinner.” is. It just takes some courage to stand on that. It is no more loving to allow a person to perish in his sins out of some fear of offending him than it is to condemn him in his sin and offer no help. See James 5:20.
is using is! That’s a new kind of English.
Well, one more thought: How could you, John? Isn’t that you being a part of the “I’m better than you” club?
.-= (Holly Cairns is a blogger. See a recent post titled Democrats: Please don’t use the word “TEABAGGER”) =-.
Holly- Uh, I’m sorry, but I’m not following your thought here. What is your reasoning to say I’m part of the “…’I’m better than you’ club?”
what happened to my comment? I’ll try again. Maybe if you change the url associated with your name the comment grinch comes and intervenes.
You are sweet, John, so I hope this goes well as I try to explain myself.
John said The thing we Americans refuse to recognize is that our sin contributed to this disaster. How about it, Americans? When are we going to repent?
Did YOU already repent? If you did, that’s when you joined the “I’m better than you” club, of which Robertson seems to head when he tells crying and dying Haitians that their sin and ours caused the disaster.
Holly- The club I joined when I repented is headed by the Apostle Paul, who referred to himself as “the worst” of sinners (see 1st Tim. 1:15). I view salvation as a process which begins at the point in our life that we recognize how badly we have failed God, acknowledge that, and receive His forgiveness and cleansing (see 1st. John 1:9). That puts us positionally complete before the Father, but from there we begin the process of sanctification best described in James. Faith without works is dead.
Griff: If you really want to understand religious prayer, I think you are going to have to entertain the possibility that God exists. “E pluribus unum” is just nonsense if you don’t believe that Latin exists.
John, first, Luke 13:4-5 is about innocent people dying and being no worse than other sinners. Really, it is!
Second, I am surprised you don’t happen to think Jesus made a difference re: sin and restitution.
Holly- Yes, I agree with you. Where did I say differently?
Well, the problem we’re having is that the “Repent or Perish” doesn’t really go with the Tower story. Two completely different messages?
On the one hand, the author asserts Jesus says we’re all are equal and so that’s NOT why bad things happened to them. The very next line says “Repent or Perish” which seems to indicate we’d better repent or bad things will happen.
The author was probably intending a different meaning, such as “Don’t go do bad things, now, just because the tower won’t fall on you if you’re bad.”
You think?
And if we take the repent or perish seriously, how often do we have to repent? If you’re in the Paul repenter group, does that make you better than someone else who repented yesterday? Maybe the earthquake started because YOU didn’t repent ENOUGH! :-0 Or me, either. I didn’t repent enough.
.-= (Holly Cairns is a blogger. See a recent post titled Democrats: Please don’t use the word “TEABAGGER”) =-.
Holly- I had a whole answer put together for you, and since I started in on my lap-top under my wife’s sign-in, I lost the whole thing. The computer did not automatically bring up my name and log-in. I just can’t face putting that together again, so I will try to give you a summary.
If you look at the Greek text, v.5 relates back to v. 4 and would not make any sense standing alone. I don’t mean to be antagonistic, but your comment,
“The author was probably intending a different meaning, such as “Don’t go do bad things, now, just because the tower won’t fall on you if you’re bad.”
sounds more like speculation that good translation. The translation of judgement without repentance is clear in the Greek.
Also, there are two perspectives on sin that we need to look at. One is the providential effect set in motion at the fall of man. The other is the individual way we each miss the mark through our actions. Jesus is refering to both concepts in this passage. Those questioning Him were looking for the personal shortcomings that earned these victims their fates. Jesus is refering to the providential effect that we all need deliverance from through the provision of Jesus’ death and resurection.
Hi John,
Yes, we could look at sin, and the meaning of sin. It might mean to think of ourselves instead of others, for instance. Or it could mean Adam messing things up for us, etc.
It just so happens that Marcus Borg talks about repentance on page 219 of Jesus (my read just now). At the time the Gospels were written,
Borg goes on to say:
The Greek roots of “repent” mean “to go beyond the mind you have.”
Any way we look at this, it would have been better for Rat Robertson to call for people to give, and love, and help, each other.
PS, our sin (you eluded to in your letter, and now in context with what you have written just now) makes sense if you are referring to America as a greedy nation that doesn’t help it’s neighbors… and perhaps abuses relationships. Is that what you meant?
Holly- Re. your statement-
“PS, our sin (you eluded to in your letter, and now in context with what you have written just now) makes sense if you are referring to America as a greedy nation that doesn’t help it’s neighbors… and perhaps abuses relationships. Is that what you meant?”
doesn’t really line up with the hard figures out there. I found a chart comparing foreign aid extended by countries worldwide. The US, at that point in time, was giving $23.5 billion in foreign aid. The next country in dollar amount was the United Kingdom, with $12.46 billion. The figures just don’t support your allegation, IMO.
As far as what we give to Haiti specifically, I found this data, whaich is a few years old, but I think demonstrates the real problem we are facing there.
“The USA is the largest foreign source of relief aid to Haiti from the 2010 Haiti earthquake.
Between 1999 and 2004, no new foreign aid to Haiti was sent because political instability made it unlikely that aid would be distributed properly. According to a World Bank report published in 2004, Haiti requires more than US$1.3 billion in aid for 2005 and 2006. In July 2004, a donors’ conference awarded Haïti more than US$1 billion in pledged aid for 2005 and 2006. The United States pledged US$230 million in aid through fiscal year 2006.”
There are some specifics regarding the current aid going on in the wake of the earthquake disaster on this link (hope it gets through Griff’s spam filter)-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Haiti_earthquake
I’m sure you have heard the old addage about pouring money down a rat hole. As long as there is corruption on the receiving end of the aid, we could give them half our GDP and the average Haitian citizen would still be in the same straits.
I can’t help but think it would be so much more effective for God to actually make himself clear rather than some ambiguous action such as an earthquake. Isn’t that a little emotionally immature? I would never attempt to teach my boys something in that manner. “You didn’t clean your room so I am going to beat you up?” But not even make the message clear? Just beat them up and expect them to extrapolate that they got the punishment because. You don’t treat dogs that horribly.
Does that say that he doesn’t really understand his creation, that he would communicate in such an ineffective manner? Shouldn’t he understands what motivates us? Wouldn’t it make sense for him to poke his head out from behind the clouds like some kind of Monty Python skit and make his message clear in no uncertain terms. He is all powerful and all why not take over the TV airwaves or something.
And what exactly doesn’t he like in Haiti? Wouldn’t it be better to send this kind of message to the folks in Hollywood or some wealthy area, that could better afford his communication style, and then have the means to better pass the message on? Hati is a bad, mean spirited target. I think I would be more moved if he were to show some kindness there, like all of a sudden the entire island was solid cheese, and the rivers flowed with beer. I’d be like “whoa! God is Good”, “there isn’t any natural explanation for that”.
Fact of the matter is, there is no God playing games with us. It is Geology. The tectonic plates are moving.
Have you see the billboard currently up by McStop on 35?
It says:
God is the God of the Twin Towers, Hurricanes, & Bridges
God is talking… but few are listening.
Read the bible.
Makes it seem like God is some sort of terrorist to me. I think homeland security should be called. Good luck finding him. oooh “just read the bible”.
I have a good picture I can send you.
I’ve seen that billboard and meant to take a picture, but never got around to it…
The “wrath of God” point of view does seem to be held by a non-zero number of MN Christians.
Pat & Alec- I think it is advisable to keep in mind that there are ramifications to our choices. God extends His love to us in that while we were still sinners, He sent His Son to die for us. If we reject that provision, there are consequences. I know that my Father really loves me and desires for me to spend eternity with Him. If I chose to reject that love, it is not His fault if I spend eternity away from His presence. The thing we have been discussing here is whether God destroys people on a seeming whim just because they have rejected Him. In my understanding of scripture, that is not an accurate exigesis. The scripture I quoted out of Hebrews, if you remeber, says we die ONCE, THEN comes judgement. God will do everything in His power to try to get our attention while we still have life and the ability to respond to Him. 1st. Timothy 2:4 says, “..who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”(NAS) It is still our choice to unwrap the gift.
Calculate the costs of paying for that billboard as opposed to spending that Money … a ‘huge’ amount, I’m sure… spending that money on alleviating any ‘suffering’ of their choice.
The apocalyptic viewpoint expressed by the writers of that billboard message is nothing but self- serving;an expression of their need to be in charge of other people’s thinking.
It is an appalling waste, couched in a (false?) religious lecture.
John,
If there is a god, and if that god is like the one you describe, then you might be correct. I haven’t seen testable evidence supporting either of those things being true.
Patrick- I accuratly described my God from the Scripture and from my own experience. It remiinds me a little of a saying I heard years ago:
“To live above with the saints we love,
That will truly be Glory.
But to live below with the saints we know,
Well, that’s a different story.”
James writes that we all stumble in many ways. I only have a problem with those people who walk in denial of that fact.
John: Because you cite the god you “know” from your “own experience” does not in any way prove validity, any more than one of NF’s foremost residents own account of his experience with a ghost proves the existence of such.
Faith substitutes for fact.
****The existence of faith REQUIRES the existence of doubt;otherwise ‘faith’ would be belief.****
It annoys the ‘bejesus’ out of me that the Renewal Lutheran churches, who preach the Great Commitment to the Great Commandment, ignore the last half of that cultural guideline…
Look it up folks…
Okay John, back to me trying to figure out what you mean by sin, then. And you didn’t reply on the idea that repent might mean to return from exile, or come closer to God, etc.
Holly- Here is the whole of Webster’s definition:
Main Entry: 1re·pent
Pronunciation: \ri-?pent\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French repentir, from Medieval Latin repoenit?re, from Latin re- + Late Latin poenit?re to feel regret, alteration of Latin paenit?re — more at penitent
Date: 14th century
intransitive verb
1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one’s life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one’s mind
transitive verb
1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition
2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
— re·pent·er noun
That seems pretty clear to me. Regarding your idea-
“…repent might mean to return from exile, or come closer to God, etc.”
what are you actually saying in this?. It sounds more like the result of the action (repentance) rather than a definition. I found this translation of the Greek word, metanoeo-
“to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent
to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins”
I have a problem with diluting the seriousness of the sin nature and the importance of turning from it. I have heard this dilution expressed something like this, “God loves you, so you must not really be bad or He wouldn’t love you. You have to be careful not to offend anyone or make them feel unloved by saying they are living sinfully.” If that is what you are suggesting, then it is the antithesis of what I am talking about.
Commentary in today’s NY Times: Between God and a Hard Place by James Wood. “Earthquakes have inspired preachers, leaders and victims to use religious reasoning and theological language to cope with the events around them.”
Griff- Wood’s article is a reasonable read, but I think it reveals a common penchant of mankind- we have to have a reason for everything that happens. We even have to define a reason WHY people say or do the things they do. There is this verse in Proverbs that describes that penchant:
25: It is the glory of God to (B)conceal a matter,
But the glory of (C)kings is to search out a matter.
There is another reference in Ecclesiastes 9 that I think is reasonable:
11I again saw under the sun that the (D)race is not to the swift and the (E)battle is not to the warriors, and neither is bread to the wise nor (F)wealth to the discerning nor favor to men of ability; for time and (G)chance overtake them all.
12Moreover, man does not (H)know his time: like fish caught in a treacherous net and (I)birds trapped in a snare, so the sons of men are (J)ensnared at an evil time when it (K)suddenly falls on them.
It appears the writer here, supposedly Solomon, recognized that some things that happen on this Earth defy any explanation or logic. For some reason, it seems that if we can explain why something happens, it should give the survivors of a calamity reason to have hope. I think that motivation may have merit, but our explanations often time don’t produce the hope we intended.
There is a passage in Romans 12 that I think provides a better direction:
14(A)Bless those who persecute [a]you; bless and do not curse.
15(B)Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
16(C)Be of the same mind toward one another; (D)do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly (E)Do not be wise in your own estimation.
Verse 15 I think has merit. What most of us want in our lives is understanding and empathy, especially when some difficulty or tragedy strikes. I think this type of response expresses love in a way that is more easily received by the hearer.
There is another passsage in Luke 17 that goes along the lines of the what I have been presenting:
33″(A)Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
34″I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
35″(B)There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Here, Jesus is presenting the same thread of thinking I addressed above in Luke 13. It is an admonishment to be prepared, for we do not know what the next minute, let alone tomorrow, will bring. Our lives are very precious, even though they are hardly a breath in the scope of eternity. What we do with them is our choice.
Griff- Back in 13.4, you raised the question about how intercessory prayer fits into all this. There is a reference in James 5:16-18 that gives me hope to pray-
16Therefore, (A)confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be (B)healed (C)The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
17Elijah was (D)a man with a nature like ours, and (E)he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for (F)three years and six months.
18Then he (G)prayed again, and (H)the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.
There are many ideas out there about how we can or should interract with God. I adhere to the one that proposes that God is active, not passive, and desires to be involved in my life. To say there is nothing but fate only is to remove hope of at least asking. This whole discussion has produced volumes of books, so, as Obie said, it cannot be definitively addressed in this blog setting. I at least wanted you to know that I have been thinking about your question, because it is valid.
John: I have a question… do you know the Bible so thoroughly that you can summon up these citations… or… do you have a subject oriented reference link?
Kiffi- Yes.
Kiffi,
Many Bibles come with a keyword “concordance”. Online and computer based versions are quite powerful.
.-= (Obie Holmen is a blogger. See a recent post titled Are American evangelicals complicit in the Uganda anti-gay movement?) =-.
My difficulty in this argument is that we have no empirical basis in a knowledge of direct will of God. Why does God explains the natural world. How can God make anything happen?
Earthquakes happen everyday. Scientist have collected data on thousands of earthquakes all over the world. These are repeatable events, that have a natural explanation, which scientist clearly understand. If, after all this data has been collected and we find no data to support a miraculous origin, we can safely say it is a natural event. No divine intervention is necessary.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
-Epicurus, 341 BC, Samos – 270 BC, Athens
Jeff- Your reference above just demonstrates how men have rationalized their own actions and disobedience to God for centuries. Epicurus’ line of reasoning is the same as many posted here on this thread. It reminds me of an observation by Jesus in Luke 10- “21(B)At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, ‘I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.’”
While researching and writing a blogpost about the American evangelical connection to the Uganda anti-gay movement that supports capital punishment for gays, I came across a group called the International Transformation Network (INT). This “prosperity gospel” movement promotes a prayer ministry collaboration between government, business, and Christianity. A pro-business theocracy if you will. Turns out the Ugandan prime minister and especially his first lady are front and center of the movement as is the member of Parliament that wrote the draconian “kill the gays” legislation. The Ugandan first lady is affectionately referred to as “Mama Janet” by the INT.
Puts a little different take on Griff’s original question about petitionary and intercessory prayer.
Here’s the local kicker; Rejoice Church has connections to the INT.
.-= (Obie Holmen is a blogger. See a recent post titled Are American evangelicals complicit in the Uganda anti-gay movement?) =-.
Here’s exactly where I have ‘the problem’… “transformation”…
Transform yourselves but keep your transformations off those who do NOT wish to be ‘transformed’, I say.
I wish someone from Rejoice would explain what it is they are working to transform about Northfield…
Kiffi- Let me expand a little bit on my answer to your question above. I have followed God and immersed myself in studying the Bible for about 38 years. I have been involved in ministry and have taught Biblical principles in the churches I have been involved in, to college students, and have traveled to Siberia three times to teach in churches there. I know the word pretty well, but I don’t profess to know everything about it. I am by no means a walking concordance. I know a verse is in the Bible, but I can’t necessarily recite it and give the reference. My son, however, can, and I covet his youthful memory. I am also painfully aware of the admonition in James 3:1 “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.” When I present an idea here, I really try to research it in the scriptures to verify its accuracy.
I should add “from memory” to this sentence, “I know a verse is in the Bible, but I can’t necessarily recite it and give the reference.”
Here’s another place I have a problem, John..
You said: “when I present an idea here, I really try to research it in the scriptures to verify its accuracy”.
Researching it in the scriptures does not IMHO, “verify its accuracy”; it verifies that a related link to that IDEA is in the scriptures. Maybe I’m just being too specific about language, I don’t think I am; I think you have made it clear that you take the Bible as the actual word of God, and therefor the actual truth, or in some cases a fact/
That takes a leap of faith, and please recall that ‘faith’ must include doubt.
Kiffi- I am only presenting a Scriptural perspective here. As I said before in another thread, I don’t look to science to verify my faith, and I don’t expect scientists to look to my faith to verify their science. I don’t think you are being too specific about the language. You are understanding what and why I am presenting an IDEA on this thread. (Remember, I have a Biblical world view.) Faith is the substance (or conviction) of things not seen, as the writer of Hebrews stated in 11:1. If I could see it, then I wouldn’t need faith, because it would be evident to my (and everyone else’s) senses.
I’m guessing that the vast majority of Northfield churchgoers have prayed for the safe return of our troops… and more to the point, that most of you who are arguing with John George have done so.
Why do you believe that God could intercede in the life/death outcome of a member of the military but not intercede with tectonic plates?
Isn’t praying “Keep our troops safe” the flip side of the same coin that says “Sin contributed to the disaster in Haiti”?
Griff: No. Even if God does not exist, praying to keep our troops safe can have all kinds of unanticipated side benefits, including causing us to reflect upon what a just war is, why war is necessary, and focusing our mission in just wars. One who doesn’t believe in God wouldn’t do the same kind of praying, and hence, wouldn’t get the same kind of benefit.
While I am certain that praying does nothing supernatural for the military, it could have a benefit psychologically on those going into danger. If the mental attitude stays upbeat and positive it may effect someones decisions in a critical moment. Having a positive attitude can effect a whole range of chemistry in a persons body, leading to better health, alertness, and ability to deal with pain. Knowing that friends and family are feeling comforted by a deluded belief an imaginary sky god can free the mind to worry about other things. It is a mechanism to let go of distracting thoughts.
We could find other/better ways to do this, however the God and Prayer thing is probably simplest. A person can just know this is going on for instance and circumvent the whole God & Prayer dog and pony show. There have been plenty of times in my life where I have been scared, I have comforted my self by thinking I had magic socks on or that my lucky pocket knife would keep me safe. I think that the lucky socks work best as they keep my feet warm as a side benefit. I know it is just as delusional as believing in a God. (A big difference is that my socks are not institutionalized, I can’t put “in socks we trust” on US currency.)
The belief in ‘prayer’ in the “keep our troops safe” sense could be different than believing there is connection between sin and catastrophe. I believe in family and community, positive affirming support and communication. That is what I can see as the ‘prayer power’ in that case. It ain’t God, it is humans.
Letting ourselves think that we should feel no guilt for our footprint on the back of the third world because “God” is somehow getting back at them for his hurt ego, is a definition of delusional evil.
I think that what Pat Robertson is really saying is: don’t feel bad that we live with lavish abundance while the people in Haiti suffer with abject poverty, they deserve it, God is punishing them.
Pat might not admit that when put that way and People of Northfield or elsewhere may not really feel that way, but it is what he is saying between the lines. He is saying it is ok to look the other way. We wouldn’t want to have our followers look and see just how absolutely absent God really is. Keep praying for that bowling score however, cause God will reach down and keep your ball out of the gutter.
If prayer is so effective then where is the evidence of it. Show me the properly-conducted double-blind studies. Some story or 2000 year old book with no collaborating evidence isn’t going to do it for me.
Pehaps the Haitians aren’t hungry enough yet?
“That’s really where this battle will be won — on our knees in prayer and fasting,” “Remember: faith without works is dead. So we’re asking you to do all of it: pray, fast, believe, trust the Lord, but also act.” Michelle Bachmann.
Is fasting really an Act? Seems to me “not eating” is not an action, eating is an act. Got it backwards there, Michelle. I would think whirling and spinning in circles would be a good act for Michelle to try, that would show lots of action.
The US with it’s high obesity rates must be doing the ‘act’ part right, look how blessed we are. Lets compare the obesity factor to disasters, I bet we might discover that God loves fat people most. We need to set up some fast food and Dunkin Donuts shops in Haiti ASAP!
Hey Griff: I don’t believe in God but I believe in the power of prayer.
Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The arguement goes something like this:
“I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.”
“But,” say Man, “the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.”
“Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn’t though of that” and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
“That was easy, said Man -- and went on to prove that black was white, and got killed on the next zebra crossing.”
Romans 1:18-20, Unbelief and Its Consequences
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
25:For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
1 Corinthians 1:25& 26
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were
not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
I remember my good friend Nancy Amerman spoke at the Northfield prayer breakfast a couple years ago. She was asked to share her testimony about her family’s life after Jeff’s sudden death. She openly spoke of their struggles and their triumphs over the couple years before. At the end, she said this, and it has one of the most poignant expressions of truth I have ever heard. “I was asked to share my testimony this morning. You tell me, what is my testimony?”
Patrick- Is that what it means to earn your stripes?
John,
No; my quote is just the continuation of Anthony’s (famous in some circles) quote from a science fiction novel.
The thing about faith and quoting from the Bible is the circularity of it. Your quote regarding the need for faith (or the threat of facing divine wrath for those who lack faith) is probably very powerful for those who have faith that the Bible is the true word of a one true god.
For those who do not share that belief, quoting the bible as proof that one must accept the truth of the bible just seems like a tautology.
Patrick- You are exactly correct. That is why we have this exhortation-
1 Thessalonians 1:5
“…for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.”
I believe there is a level of demonstrable power like what is written about in Acts that is available to we believers today. There are two keys to unlocking it, I believe- holiness and obedience. I’m not convinced that the contemporary church, especially in America, is walking in either well enough to see this released. It is the desire of my heart, and those I am in relationship with, to see that level of holiness be represented in our own lives, at least.
warm your throwing arm up, john, you got lots of stonin’ to do.
Oh? How is that?
If there be found among you … that … hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them … Then shalt thou … tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers … thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10
The modern christian way is to quote Romans 1:18-20, and scare them into believing. We only want gullible superstitious followers (preferably with money). You don’t get your hands dirty like the good ole days.
The only logic is completely circular logic.
John 8:7-
“But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, ” He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
Matthew 7:2-4-
2″For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3″Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4″Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
James 5:16-
“Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.”
Oh for “god’s” sake… dueling quotations… Can you put an end to this foolishness, Obie?
Kiffi,
I’m powerless. My solution is silence. I have learned long ago that to reply is to invite endless, circular, repetitive discourse--an exercise in finding how many different ways one can say the same thing.
.-= (Obie Holmen is a blogger. See a recent post titled Are American evangelicals complicit in the Uganda anti-gay movement?) =-.
If it’s good enough for Jesus, its good enough for me- Matthew 4:5-7
“5Then the devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,
6and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,
‘HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU’;
and
‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP,
SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’”
7Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’”
The only advantage to having a weapon is knowing how to use it.
John, I’m the real god! It’s the other ten thousand gods who are fakes! If you don’t believe me just test the other Gods. Start with Mirtha he has a good story.
Oh and by the way “YOU SHALL NOT TEST ME (the real one)!!”
Matthew 7 has got to be one of the lamest quotes and proof of quackery in the whole of the bible. It is like saying “I am only going to save people that believe things without evidence.” Or only people that believe that the ex prime minister of Nigeria wants to send them $100000000. What has God got against a little reassurance of his reality? Clearly it is called for. I could have grown up in India where everyone around me said the same thing about another God.
“Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind-folded fear.” -- Tom Jefferson
Alec- Wow!
are you saying your infallible book contradicts itself?
1 Cprinthians 2:14-
“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”
I don’t know how you can say im not as spiritual as you. have you ever run barefoot early morning in the spring when the dew is still on the grass? That’s spiritual.
and I don’t see this stuff as being spiritual
http://www.jesuspan.com/
Nor do I.
Anthony- I come from a stance that a person has to consider the whole counsel of God. 1 John 1:8-
“7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
“8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
As I said to William S. above, since we do not know when our time is up, I think it behoves us to be prepared. Judgement is not mine to mete out, but I submit myself to the Him who has the power to destroy both my body and my soul (Matthew 10:28).
Sorry the whole blood of Jesus thing does not make any sense at all.
God -- You see it was necessary for me to sacrifice myself to myself in order to allow myself to change a rule that I myself, created… What’s not to get?
Russell -- And what exactly are you saving us from?
God -- me sending you to Hell.. it all ties in!
from Russellsteapot.com
Anthony- Is this something that happened by natural selection or is this attributable to a common designer? And why?
lol @ fun puns
[...] it is possible that some people did evolve from monkees and or green slime. You can find the proof here, as it appears they live in Northfield, Mn!! A great number of [...]
Griff: where does # 47 originate from?
When you link to it, you come on to the same sort of anonymously created ranting that refers to LG as “Locally Bought and Paid For”… the same sort of anonymous rant in the NFNews comments that appears with that referral to LG…
I know you don’t want me to even discuss it, but this sort of anonymous BS is dangerous in a community that is already feeling unsettled.
You can’t ignore it.. it is insidious, and the definition of that word is: “proceeding inconspicuously but with grave effect”.
swine flu isn’t evidence of evolution?
Kiffi, the pingback is from the blog authored by Kevin Budig, candidate for Northfield School Board last year. He mostly uses the pseudonym ‘Maddmedic’ but it’s fairly well-known who he is. Regardless, I should have noted that when I approved the pingback. Thanks for the alert.
and also, I don’t think I evolved from
Michael Nesmith
Davy Jones
Micky Dolenz
Peter Tork
If you are having trouble understanding how evolution works watch “Climbing Mount Improbable” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1vXXMsYak
It is both entertaining and educational. Anyone that makes a statement like that really needs to at least learn what the basics are.
what an act of courage, making the blog password protected.
Anthony wrote:
Either that, or it was a special gift from God, handcrafted especially for us. Take your pick.
Given the fact that we know how the genetic reassortment of influenza works, and can predict in advance that these kind on new virulent strains will periodically be produced by this process, I’d say “yes -- evolution.”
Anthony you wrote:
Kinda runs counter to the whole point of blogging, yes.
Patrick & Anthony- Are you saying that mutations are evolution? Is this where we get the concept of imutable rights?
Actually, influenza strains most commonly evolve into new strains due to reassortment, not mutation.
(Or rather, new pandemic strains like the 2009 Novel H1N1 tend to evolve by reassortment. Smaller, year-to-year changes in influenza strains are more likely to be due to mutation.)
Patrick- This “reassortment” of a flu virus always produces some new type of FLU virus. Almost sounds like asexual reproduction. If this “reassortment” produces something different than another virus, say an amoeba, then I might be inclined to believe the application of evolution as I have heard it stated in opinions posted here. If evolution is used to describe this changing of one virus into a different but similar virus, then I have no problem with embracing that. The claim that this micro-process applies on a macro scale is where you lose me.
John,
If a single mutation in a virus created an amoeba, that wouldn’t be evolution -- that would be a miracle. They’re that different, and a _lot_ of time was required for that to happen in the real world.
However, here are a couple examples from one list of some observed speciation events:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
…To be clear, Amoebas did not evolve from viruses. But they do probably share a (very distant) common ancestor.
Patrick- I read a study sometime over the last year that found that men and earthworms share something like 80% of the same DNA (I think I got my terms correct. I’m keeping up with this between clients and not taking time to research the articles). Just because that is so, I have a hard time equaling a singular lineage from that data.
why do you have a hard time with this?
John,
That fact (that there are shared DNA sequences, not any particular measure of that similarity) is compatible with evolution, but is not in and of itself a strong case for evolution. Indeed, the Theory of evolution was proposed something close to a century before anyone discovered DNA.
Patrick- That’s what I thought. If this could be resolved, that WOULD be earthshattering news! Another earthquake? Caused by agreement rather than sin? Now, that is earthshattering, also! (Sorry- couldn’t resist interjecting a little fun, if you might call it that!)
[...] from here! Locally [...]
Kevin Budig linked here twice in two days but then made his stopblyanddahle.wordpress.com blog private, requiring a username and password.
Here are the two blog posts in which he linked to us, first the screencaptures, then the text with links:
Kevin Budig’s other blog, MaddMedic, is still up.
http://maddmedic.wordpress.com/
I think he’s confusing hilarity with offense
I’m glad to know that Kevin is praying for Obama… to die soon.
Sheesh.
(See the top of his “Maddmedic” blog.)
Did someone write something slamming his service to or commitment to the community? I missed that, all I saw was disagreement due to his complete lack of understanding of evolution.
I sure wasn’t aware that we weren’t allowed to be offended by, or disagree with someone who has had a job helping others. Well especially when he asks for it by linking to his blog. Yeah cause that’s good, I might try that next time someone disagrees with me on an unrelated topic.
Alec,
He flamed my humor blog a couple years ago basically taking the same tack… because he’s worked saving lives his opinions on essentially-unrelated matters are somehow more valuable. Granted, I did have the temerity to write an obviously-parodic piece called “Abortion Is Awesome!”
Alec- Brace yourself! Here comes another scripture, but I think you’ll see what I mean.
Hebrews 12:15 “See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;”
I think it was Andy Rooney who said something like we do not have the right to not be offended. I don’t know Kevin, but I don’t agree with the tone of his blog posts. Dying to oneself is never easy, and the old flesh puts up quite a fight.
Brendon, That is an incredibly funny post. Your back and forth with Kevin make it all that much better.
John, there are lots of scripture that is wise and good, even for someone that will never believe in the whole Jesus thing. I will call you on the silly ones pointing out why I don’t believe it, and I hope you don’t take offense. I will try to be nice, even to Kevin.
Alec- No offense taken, I assure you. We each will give account in that day. I know there are things in the scripture that I do not completely understand, but, like many others in the past, I know that I will understand them in the right time. My lack of understanding of some things does not prevent me from following those things I know to be true, or have experienced.
So here’s A question… the maddmedic website uses a headline of a scripture quote about failure and numbered days to refer to President Obama. The previous site linked to by Griff… the one now closed to public perusal, gave information about a “Ultimate Adventure Cruise” offering for $5200 a person, double occupancy, a cruise to the international waters off Somalia to hunt pirates; All manner of guns available on board for rental (ak47 for $25.00), as well as markmanship training, etc.
***Now do you understand this… An “ultimate adventure cruise” for people to hunt people!***
I do not approve of the ‘pirates’ and their actions in the shipping channels off Somalia; I do NOT approve of people hunting people , AND it should not have to be necessary for that to even be an issue to be discussed in this community.
I might also note that Mr. Budig’s website links his affirmation of guns, with home invasion, and threatening “scareware” software which implies that he knows who is looking at his site and can take any action he pleases… as it says” ….I don’t play well with others”
We have every right to free speech, and we have every right to react to the threatening speech of others, whether “protected ” by scripture or not.
***Here’s the question: Since Mr. Budig links to his church, which is then revealed as Rejoice, does the ministry, and congregation of Rejoice approve and support the writings of their avowed member?***
I would hope not, for the good of Northfield.
*** Here’s a second question: Since Mr. Budig has been an EMT, teaches EMT, and uses a headline which hopes the days of the President of the United States are numbered, and expresses that hope through scripture… what can we imagine would be his reaction if President Obama was speaking at Carleton, and required the assistance of NF Paramedics? ***
Remember that a now deceased NF resident was jailed for three days, by the FBI, when he uttered his dissatisfaction with President Clinton , before a speech at Carleton.
The gentleman has a new blog entitled Interned in Northfield. Most of his posts are merely links to other conservative blogs, but he has attacked several of us there including Holly C, “Locally bought and paid for”, myself, and perhaps others.
.-= (Obie Holmen is a blogger. See a recent post titled One Lutheran congregation votes to send withheld funds to ELCA) =-.
Obie- What is the actual link for “Interned in Northfield?” I Googled it, and got several referenced articles, but it wasn’t clear to me that I was on the actaul blog site. Thanks in advance.
John,
freemadd.wordpress.com/
.-= (Obie Holmen is a blogger. See a recent post titled One Lutheran congregation votes to send withheld funds to ELCA) =-.
Obie- Thanks again for the link. I haven’t been through everything on it yet, but your assessment seems correct- it is a bunch of links to conservative web sites. These seem quite common these days, both conservative and liberal. They aren’t a good source for objectively substantiating a position, IMO.
Check this out from the NY times about two favorite betes noires : Richard Dawkins and Pat Robertson.
http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/27/fundamentalists-and-the-atheists-who-love-them/?8ty&emc=ty
Paul Z.- That is definitly a good read.
Paul: Interesting article. It’s hard for me to believe that a man as smart as Dawkins could have such an intellectually stunted view of Christianity.
Griff,
Got to get your camera up to northbound I35 before County 70 exit in Lakeville. Noticed billboard sign this morning on the way to work that reads(I can’t remember it all exactly):
” God is talking to us, Twin Towers, hurricanes and ??, is anyone listening to him?”
Maybe the sign has been there for a long time and I have not noticed til now. Thought it kind of ties into the discussion here. I don’t know who paid to have it put up.
God is talking billboard
You no lissina my Bible, I no lissina your global warmin’!
It went up a couple of weeks ago.