Nick -- you brought it (puppetry) up; I thought, as a reason to not support White collar development over Blue -- I merely was trying to make a case for the potential value in puppetry (Any arts/cultural effort) as opposed to tire factories, tanneries, or wheaties… especially in Northfield, today… with what we’ve got going for us -- and in fact with what we’ve got (ABCD) that is virtually unique. e.g. Small town environs, two world class colleges, historic DT and for MANY intents and purposes, landlocked by so much geography and sociology.

Geography degree. I’d love to hear your feeling about Northfield’s geographic advantages -- disadvantages… a theme I’ve been clanging on for the past ten years -- ever since the big boxes put their “colonial” boot on our turf!

How for example, from a geographer’s point of view the burgeoning corporate take over of the globe effects geography issues; food shelter, tillable soil, water preservation/pollution and air pollution… not to mention global warming… and then, if you can, tie that back to Northfield.. and it’s position and responsibility to become a model global community. You could start with the two college wind turbines, ethanol in Bridgewater, highway traffic, and future industry in N’fld.

victor

City planning is an interesting field… I’m going to try to take a course or two in that area before I graduate with my degree in geography. Let’s hope it works out better than puppetry.

Nick: No insult inferred -- or at least I’m to immune to take offense. Absolutly no need for apology. It was a good perspective excahnge.

Frankly, I like people to respond openly to any comment made here. mine, yours or Peter’s, for example.

Yes, I’m suspect of the Chamber’s numbers. Regardless, as I don’t see my intentions designed to keep blue collar workers down and out… I don’t see a disconnect here.

Clearly, balanced growth tailored to the scope and scale ofthe community is best. Would you agree?

If not, let’s talk about that.

Incidentally my feeling re: empowered units such as the EDA is that they DON’T “talk” at least about these things, to any reasonable end. They do spend time planning a work matrix, revising it so that they might-deal with these issues.. and that’s talking… but it’s mostly talking about, how to talk about the issues.. or who to hire, to dismiss any effort they finally seem to be inclined to appear to advance. Perish the thought, more experts, more consultants. You, me, Pete and a handful of other lurkers could have a more progressive ( and possibly aggressive) dialogue. I think again, my limited verbal skills undo me. I believe that both Tracy and Ross could comment about the EDA process, if they choose to. Tracy for example has proven to be far more proactive here in venting opinion than I perceive she was as a member of the EDA. Shut down?

Was it gender imbalance… or too much respect for civility in discourse and the anonymity of E talk feeling safer. I was always amused by the physical action following saying something challenging (at the EDA meetings) then emphasizing your remark with the dramatic rise from your chair, then with an air of dismissivness, the casual stroll to the coffee pot for a hot refill. An actors on-stage device for avoiding the cynical stare.

Perhaps Tracy feels she was a tigress on the Authority. I too often felt the underlying rumble was more polite purring.

So now if I tag this with a colon a hyphen and a parens it’s okay, right? i.e.

As to the Carleton kid enamored w/puppets -- have you experienced the Heart of the Beast Puppet Theater in MPls? Remember Kookala Fran & Ollie? 60s TV (maybe your too young) Even I’m too young for the Commedia dell’arte… Punch and Judy. The Renaissance, right?. Sounds good to me. Hey puppets ain’t bad. Early in my personal TV career, I hosted a Kids show -- Pook the 200 lb. Elf -- we had puppets… I loved the puppets. I talked w/them. No, let the Carleton Kid pursue puppets, Jonas Salk work on vaccines and Bush with his Ivy League degree, look for weapons in the dessert. All of those activities will involved some blue and some white collars. There’s room for all of you. I’m retired.

So, we agree? Balanced growth as much as possible… tailored to the scope and scale of the community, expanding wisely as opportunities evolve and reaching I-35 with Smart Growth by 2050. Did I mention the street car line out to the freeway?

YOU WROTE “I may very well be wrong though… I don’t have a degree in economic development.”

I doubt that any current or former member of the EDA does or any did.. or any city council member past or present… Tracy or Anne, Peter or Kiffi… Griff and Ross… and I don’t either!

But, could I have gotten a degree in Dissenting? Hmm-mm?

victor

You may say, what has this has to do with economic vitality of the DT or Northfield as a whole. Well, the answer is everything.

In economic studies for commercial/retail and industrial development, worker locations, transportation, and supporting infrastructure (including other supportive goods and services) are always taken into account.

(side bar -- ask Norman Butler where and by whom he gets his food item delivered and how much?)

Continuing, another important feature is the balancing in the job market (local and regionally). A robust job market = robust local economy. There is a balance between this idea of supply and demand. Take this a step further, we have all heard of the term ‘bed room’ community. So, if there is more opportunity to attract employees to live and work in Northfield, this will have an impact on the broad economic health of Northfield. This also begs the question, what housing price ranges is Northfield offering. A quick study in the average prices of new home in Northfield will tell you that, plus remember, quantity is also important, how many houses in each range, low, medium, high.

We have all heard of bringing more people DT to live, this is a good livable communities strategy (that ones for you Victor), but again economies of scale plays into the equation. The market can only sustain a certain number of condos. One recent example (we all know) demonstrates that point. But DT housing is only one factor, it is important to supply housing to people who want to live and work in Northfield as an affordable level. If I remember correctly that was also a misunderstood policy in the existing CP.

Over to you.

Oh yeah, F. Y. I. folks:
http://nddc.org/weblogs/homepageblog/archives/000577.html

According to the Northfield Chamber of Commerce, Malt-O-Meal has 1100 employees, compared to about 800 at St. Olaf.

I heard there was a kid who used the “design a degree” program at Carleton to major in puppetry, which doesn’t seem too practical. I was saying white collar (college degree) jobs don’t guarantee success (college degree in puppetry). In other words, effort should be made to attract employers to Northfield regardless of what color their collar is. The broader the economic base the better. The appropriate motto would be “don’t put all of your eggs in one basket.”

I may very well be wrong though… I don’t have a degree in economic development.

Nick Benson… Curt Benson… so many Bensons? I’ll confess to a bit of confusion there -- for a moment.

But to the kernel of NICK Benson’s reaction to my Curt Benson comment.

Nick: If your claim, “Malt o Meal puts food on the table for more people than any other employer in Northfield, you’re referring to M-O-M’s the cereal producer, I agree. Obviously people all over the nation eat M-O-M products. I’m not aware of any other nationally distributed food stuffs made in the 55057 zip area. So, I agree, if that’s the meaning of your food on the table remark.

But we both know that you’re talking about the number of employees, implying M-o-M is the largest N’fld employer.

If that is your meaning, I believe your demographics are incorrect.

My understanding is St. Olaf College is the single employer of the most people in Northfield. Coincidentally, I’m confident that many of the workers who owe their employment directly (or indirectly) to the College, hold what we both would classify as “blue Collar” jobs. Add in Carleton’s blue collar and that number increases.

In Detroit they count employees “in the auto industry”. In Northfield we certainly could use, college employed, as a meaningful measure of high employment. [sic] good business.

You imply I frown on Blue Collar workers. Hardly true. Before my 40 years as a Film and TV producer I have at least 15 years of hard work in the housing industry. Began as a ditch digger -- and excepting my age, imagine I can out-dig many still today. I was a general laborer in the housing industry including: carrying lumber, cleaning up the plaster from the sub floors, and dismantling of the “out houses” . I’d call that a Dark-Blue Collar.

Subsequently I became a carpenter. A little more pale, but still blue, right?

Why is this important? Because those skills and that effort are deep roots in my work ethic, as well as in my expectations.

You wrote of the Irony of my using French to disprove elitism. Hello, but I think of the rabble of the french… storming the Bastille… and all their French peasant relatives. I’m a lot closer to them than Marie Antoinette.

If you feel my perspective is elitist, my blue collar roots undo me… I must be too inarticulate for you to grasp my meaning.

You write of the $40 K a year cost to get a degree in puppetry ( I assume that’s a reference to someone you’ve heard of who went to college and works puppets.) and further, that I consider that career path more worthwhile than some undefined blue collar worker with no degree… and then, charge me with being “snobby, arrogant, and downright foolish.” Can’t prove you wrong. Believe me you are… but… what does any of this have to do with business growth in Northfield?

My point has been… we are geographically challenged to find contiguous land to develop for big businesses… and we are fiscally challenged to develop and acquire these otherwise, far-fringe areas.

Conversely, we have the opportunity (I’d argue, the responsibility) to improve the environment of the business climate, by improving the DT and its fringe, first… do so with far greater ease and at a lesser cost, while providing amenities to the citizens with the development of these new found uses.

That’s not elitism, it is smart growth.

Additionally, I think the most likely business to seek asylum in our community (In what I’ve called the Far-Fringe) would likely be associated with education [sic] the colleges, or the hospital… as the medical industry inevitably grows. Could be health care, insurance, research, or a lot of associated activities that I haven’t thought of. Might also be an ambulance service garage full of greasy blue collar auto workers.

Finally, your focus on the community’s motto “Colleges, Cows, Contentment, etc. provides me with a relevant response.

The Colleges are still here and thriving. The cows are long gone… and likely the Contentment was “tongue in check”. Regardless, signage that heralds those characteristics is cvute, but relatively meaningless, when compared to the newer sign out on I-35 that attests to Northfield’s Historic Downtown. As to community growth, suffice to say… what I envision for Northfield is development tailored to the scope and the scale of the community. Not OUT SIZING it for the sake of big business’s bottom line.

victor

After reading more about what NDDC does, I will look forward to their final conclusion and leadership to move all of the contributions into planning format so that actions can be taken to address all of the problems that arose during this conversation and I am sure will keep coming up, specially in the DT forums coming up.

If I can be of service, let me know I have been working on the visionary document and plan for the Latino Enterprise Center as the core strategy for the economic aspect of the local Latino/a population and on the long term integration plan as part of the merging of civic engagement and economic development aspects.

It will be great to now where the city’s vision is, investment priorities and the leadership of the NDDC so that I can incorporate those aspects into our own Latino/a sector planning to eventually integrate/merge our own work into the whole picture.

Thank you for such an energizing discussion, it is time to make some strategic conclusions, time for the leaders to emerge.

Reginaldo.

Refuting claims of elitism with French -- brilliant!

While it might be fun for you to frown upon those with darker collars than yours, Malt-O-Meal puts food on the table for more people than any other employer in Northfield.

The mentality that any good employer is one who is in the service industry is snobby, arrogant, and downright foolish. It’s bad policy to ignore the large portion of the workforce that thinks it’s insane to spend $40,000 a year on a degree in puppetry.

The motto “Colleges, Contentment, and Collars, White,” doesn’t have quite the same quaint ring to it, does it?

If it is the visitor or potential buyer, Do we know what is perceived by the outsider who knows little about Northfield? If we did, we might be able to adjust.

For example, what if we found out that New movers were interested in “quaint” for shopping but also might like the Big Box Store option. Maybe some new movers won’t even like the city if there weren’t big box options.

Personally, when I visit a city I notice if there are a lot of options, or does it seem antiquated? Quaint can be perceived as antiquated…

I think it takes a mix of things to make people happy. It might take people who fight for vitality downtown AND big box stores, AND creativity. I LIKE CHOICE and I don’t like to drive for all the things I need. Why can’t we find balance instead of just focusing on ONLY DOWNTOWN? What about the the whole of the picture and thinking about vitality in general?

Anyway, IMHO change is good. Old is out. New is in, and we don’t know everyone in town (we’re too big) and we don’t even know what the heck stores are downtown and so we might start there.

A special apology to spousal ONE!

Incidentally I had acknowledged this error earlier, but can’t find it here -- so I must have erred there as well

victor

Mean or not, when you enter the public arena expect a few lions to chew on you, especially if your as aggressive as Anne is about her POV. From my point of view, Anne Brettes goes on and on, putting down visionary remarks… validating her opinion w/her opinion and the “dozens” of towns, jobs, and papers she’s worked on… passes off her skepticism of those who will and have worked for more for our community… and all the time rings her chime for big business. I don’t give a rip for who she’s contacted re: movie theatres. I’m confident that the market here (start w/5000 college students) can and will support the right mix of business accumen and bottom line goals.

I believe eralier you mentioned your read of Big Box Swindle, and I assume you agree then with me that Stacy Mitchell makes an excellent case for why small bookstore such as yours, not only should prevail in the market place… but likely will, as long as the bar is not set too high. Anne speaks only to those businesses that will clear the “bar” and likely the DT.

You’ll survive, but not if Anne’s view of the DT proves to be accurate. I’m sure there’s a football defense term that applies here, something lke 3,4, 2 Cover Umbrella, with a nickle back.

Other than that … I find it too ironic that Anne gets DT… even to GoodBYEBlue! Also, seems equally ironic that
N-Dot-Org’s Issues List seems to have fallen back in the pack with the offing of Locally Grown. So, Anne’s welcome here (not my place to extend that… but) and with your entry you takes your chances!

Another subject:
Curt Benson asked that I expand on my remark: “Thankfully, our industry, will be white collar, academic in nature.” Saying, “he smells elitism” in my comment.

Au Contraire, Curt. My remark probably would have been more accurate had I said Hopefully our industry will be white collar, academic…. etc.

Expanding I ‘ll simply reiterate the ABCD remark… Asset Based Development… playing to your strengths, to get stronger. i.e. College Town -- means college business.
Might be Conference Centers, Software developers with Liberal Arts Schools focus, Research Center, etc.

Another strength could be our excellent and impressive hospital (situated next to the Light Industrial site out in the (Northwest) Are there development possibilities in the health care business? Is it growing?

How about a corporate Headquarters located in N’fld -- academic or health related. That’s all I meant.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I Have no direct link to the colleges or the hospital. Simply feel that these are the kind of businesses that are most likely to locate here -- and, I called them “white collar, academic in nature.

Nope, not elitism, merely a practical development outlook.

vs

sorry I was interupted, so more about chains. I’m not a fan of Target and yes I would rather they did not exist, but they do. I don’t forsee Target leaving in my lifetime. So do I proselytize or do I act? I have to act. I can’t wait for Target to go away. I’ve read Stacy Mitchell, read Smallmart. Maybe my rent is too high, but I signed the lease knowing what my rent will be including taxes.

I can compete w/ the big boys. I had 5 internet orders today for new books, dvds and calendars. All were cheaper than the chains or amazon. I scoop up the crumbs left behind and it seems to work. Yes I made more money working for St. Olaf, I made even more working for Borders.

Not all chain locations lose money in the early years. Yes they can and they have a safety net if they do, but my experince at Borders proved the opposite. Most locations made money the first year.

I will proselytize, but I have to act. That is why I like what Anne had to say. She is willing to help through Northfield.org. I plan to work with her, the NDDC, locallygrownNorthfield.org and anyone else who wants to partner.

I’ll shut up now.

sorry if I gave the impression that I was considering leaving, I’m not. business is good, not great, could be better. I have hit my sales goal every month since opening. I was just saying someone will replace me or my neighbors if we leave.

I still believe if we want downtown to be successful, retailers like me need to offer customers a reason to come downtown, value, selection, service. Some businesses like the Rair Pair and R.C. Books do it very well. Others need to improve. I could expand my hours and open on Sunday. I hope to this year, but it’s not easy. We need to leverage the internet(how’s that for business jargon). I think most of the Division street retailers have almost no internet presence. Read Griff’s comments about the liquor store.

One of the challenges I see is how do we reach the 60% of Northfielders who don’t shop downtown and can we even reach them? We can blame the EDA, the city and others. We should push them to do better. In the meantime, we need to take care of our own business. I know my landlord won’t have aproblem filling my location if I leave.

victor’s adding:
I-35 access
contiguous infrastructure
and most importantly… a sense of place that co-exists with the development going on there.

Many here (N’fld) may feel that some industry will pull our chestnuts out of the fire… and while I’d never say never [sic] there will be a landmark style theater on the Q block and DT will be all the better for that… Faribault style of industrial development is not on our RADAR.

Thankfully, our industry will be white collar, academic in nature.

150 years of parallel growth of the city and the colleges can not be set aside with the flourish of the EDA wand. Like it or not ( never have understood the competitive nature of the City and many of it’s old guard with the Colleges… but some still feel inferior) our best bet is to go with what the EDA was entertaining a few years ago; ABCD -- Asset Based Community Development, a concept that says, grow from with in.. with what you’ve got.

Unfortunately, all they (the EDA) did was talk about it.

Still looking for chimers-in w/opinions re: my essential question.

l’ll ask again… Which of the activities (developing a NW industrial site -- or filling in the DT) will have the greater impact on the other [development] coming to pass?

Will the Industrial Park, out past the hospital, pump development of the DT… OR will an increasingly vibrant DT be an asset to developing the fringes of the community?

Still seeking professional and lay opinions.

Back to Faribault’s development along I-35… Faribault’s no Northfield. When th tracks are laid and the Northfield Streetcar line runs west along 19 to 35…then, we’ll be in the development mode that Faribault is in today.

Finaly, wondering. Did Anne Bretts hold her confab at GoodBye Blue… and why there… when the BigChain SA serves coffee on the frontage road -- any size any style 89¢ a cup? And of course there’s also MacDonalds, Burger King and TOO many others out along the strip, as well.

I must say that Rice County and the City of Faribault work very well together transportation wise. They understand the pull that good access makes and plan their local street infrastructure accordingly. They also know how to work closely with various state agencies to pull it off.