Well, for starters, Obama’s speech was simply spectacular. Even Pat Buchanan was gushing effusively - so much so that on MSNBC, Keith Olbermann had to cut him off to go to a commercial break. Contemplate that for a second.
Barack Obama is a truly great orator, whose only rival in the gift of inspiring and persuading in the last half-century is Ronald Reagan. That’s a very good thing, because Obama’s skills are used in service of a sane, positive vision for our future, and because we desperately need to bring about a dramatic course correction after the terrible, foolish mistakes of the last 8 years.
The fights will go on, but there is no way that the grumpy old man with an evolving reflexive vocal tic of “noun, verb, and ‘because I survived in a P.O.W. prison camp’” can ultimately prevail against Barack Obama and the Democrats. Ours is an inspired, inspiring, and thoughtful leader, and we have the advantage of being right.
What? No cardboard cutout of McCain? Perhaps that’s because his positions are complex and not just platitudes?
More seriously, maybe his supporters are not as much into a cult of personality. Though next week may prove me wrong. But I am sure we won’t hear too many people weeping with emotion over him.
Bruce,
It’s not so much about a cult of personality, but rather a recognition that great oration is a necessary skill for great leadership.
For an example of how a lack of the same leads to failure: Kerry, anyone?
Speaking of him, Kerry actually gave a great convention speech… four years too late.
Let’s see, being too popular is a bad thing? The fact that Obama drew 94,000 people and McCain can’t give away enough tickets to fill 10,000 seats for his VP announcement means McCain is the serious candidate. Obama’s celebrating the anniversary of the “I have a dream” speech and McCain is celebrating his campaign pick on the anniversary of the Katrina nightmare.
Now it makes sense. And when McCain loses, he should come to Northfield. He’d fit right in at City Hall.
Bruce,
I’ll also go out on a limb and bet that there’ll be plenty of wet eyes during the RNC convention, as well. I guarantee that McCain’s P.O.W. years will be presented to great effect, and many tears will be shed. Of course, it will be during someone else’s speech. But does that make it any less of a ‘cult of personality’ thing? I would say not.
It would be a lot of work, but if it would help you to cast a vote for Barack Obama, I could force myself to sit through (well, skim, anyway) the entire RNC convention, and put together a tape of teary eyes for you.
Patrick, speaking of great convention speeches, did you ever hear Hubert Humphrey’s 1948 convention speech? It was revolutionary, and risky–alienating the southern Democrats.
Curt,
Thanks for the tip. You’re right, that was a great and important speech. I was passingly familiar with Strom Thurmond’s Dixiecrat rebellion, as well as Truman’s order for desegregation of the Army, but I had not realized Hubert Humphrey’s prominent role in that fight. That was impressive.
Patrick, my father and his brothers were active in the DFL, starting in the mid 40’s. They knew Humphrey and Mondale etc. When I was old enough to become politically aware, in the mid 60’s, it seemed odd to me that they thought of Humphrey as a sort of forward looking groundbreaker. At the time, Humphrey was LBJ’s loyal vice president. I remember reading about how he sat in the White House and could hear the chants of the protesters outside, “Hubert Humphrey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today!”
Anyway the 1948 convention speech gives one an idea of Humphrey’s true role in this nation’s history.
The speeches by Obama, Kerry and the Clintons were all great and full of drama. The governor of Montana, Brian Schweitzer, was highly entertaining. I really could have done without the Spielberg films and the Superbowl halftime production values. I’m a loyal Democrat, but I have a hard time squaring the repeated emphasis on middle class values and ordinary working Americans with the over-the-top Hollywood glitz of last night.
I hate to break up this love fest, but I thought the Obama speech was way too long and boring. He said some good things, no doubt. My favorite was that government was here to help us, not hurt us. Also, I loved when he said we are not blue states and we are not red states, we are the United States of America, and he got what I believe to be the loudest response from the gathering of 75,000 - 84,000 people. That’s where Obama shines, unification, but only if he doesn’t have a great and proper opponent.
But as for substance, and how he was going to deliver all this help without taxing the middle class at all…and how he made it seem like he was going to save anyone in this country who has any problem at all, well, I think he took it too far. He tried to show the people that it was they who needed to do the work, but I don’t think that message got very far…when Kennedy did the same thing, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country, people took it to heart. Different times, I suppose. Well, we will see what McCain does. He will have to come up with an Oscar winning level performance to out do Obama. We shall soon see.
He also gave the Clinton, as in Bill, lineabout hoping to reduce the number of abortions, by reducing teen pregnancies. Weak attempt at grasping for the middle road here. And there is also that line again about restructuring the military…on his website, he plans to get 65,000 more army recruits and almost 100,000 more military personnel, besides the National Guard. He doesn’t say how.
I don’t think anyone is taking apart his words. He’s not THAT smart. And Biden, I will say again is old school. Way old school foreign policy that DFLers say has failed over and over again. Plus Obama didn’t vote against the law recently passed that gave the phone companies the right to turn over all the records to the govt on demand. Bah!
Patrick, I slightly checked out the Liver Tearians, and they are in a scrambled egg mess of so many factions, I’d have to call them the Denver
omelette of political parties. This is what I dislike about parties, if you don’t think exactly like the party line, then you are OUT on your BUM.
It’s brainwashing through and through most of the time. I dislike that very much, but thanks, anyway.
Bright, you’re a great lady, but no one will ever meet your standards. The whole point Obama is making is that this campaign is about people like you and Patrick and me all getting up out of the bleachers and working with the people we don’t like to find solutions. The process is messy and sometimes ugly and it seems to take forever, but there is no one candidate who is going to do it for us.
If you want a lesson in change, rent “1776″ which outlines the highly political process of compromise that kept the Declaration of Independence from going up in smoke. (It’s a really odd musical, but give it a chance…) Or for a much more depressing, yet uplifting, movie, rent “Amazing Grace” and watch the emotional, exhausting, long battle to end slave trading in England.
We can’t just watch TV with the remote in our hands, clicking through the channels until we find the perfect political package. Life isn’t the Home Shopping Network or match.com.
So come on, Bright, there are two pretty clear choices this year. Neither is perfect, but you can’t say there’s no difference.
It was interesting to me that the protesters in Denver were kept a respectrul 500 yards away (5 football fields according to one NPR reporter, if I remember right). I’m also told that at the RNC they will be allowed within 100 feet of the center (don’t know if that is distance to a back wall or if the delegates will have to run an old-fashioned gauntlet.
I am already burned out on pep-rallies, so I may sit next week out.
And yes, Obama’s speech was well done (I did not have the luxury of a video feed so I had to judge based on the audio only, and I was working at the same time, so may not have enjoyed the full experience).
It’s not so much about a cult of personality, but rather a recognition that great oration is a necessary skill for great leadership.
I guess my trepidation is that history is full of “True Believer” movements led by great orators. I wish group consciousness was raised by reason rather than being aroused by oratory. In the former path lies enlightenment, in the latter lies demagoguery (my thanks to P. Zorn, this time I spell checked).
I guess my trepidation is that history is full of “True Believer” movements led by great orators. I wish group consciousness was raised by reason rather than being aroused by oratory. In the former path lies enlightenment, in the latter lies demagoguery
I agree wholeheartedly: I love reasoned discussion, and wish it was the bedrock of our democracy. Unfortunately, in national politics, reasoned discussion consistently gets killed by cleverly crafted oratory.
I’m just glad that for once, the guy with the brilliant oratory is also the one who comes closest to where reason has led me.
ArtOrg will be participating at the UnConvention on Monday and Tuesday from 11am to 10pm at Peavey Plaza in Minneapolis.
Here’s the link to our UnConvention post. We almost taglined this event with “Prints of Rage” but thought better of it in the end. It is a nonpartisan event billed as “performances and participatory culture”!
Well, there goes McCain’s ‘inexperience’ card. In 2005, when Obama was already serving in the US Senate, this woman was still mayor of a town of 9,000.
“After his attacks on Obama’s readiness for the job, it’ll be amusing to hear a 71-year-old with a history of health problems justify this decision.”
Bruce, when you are right, you are right on!
Anne, thanks for the compliment, but I’m just an ordinary person who wants great men and women in great positions to do what they say they will, and if they cannot, then don’t keep making empty promises. That’s not too much to ask, is it? Furthermore, I don’t think I ever said McCain and Obama were the same.
I am pleased with the selection of Sarah Palin, at first glance. We need a woman in there, and she has the history to prove who she is. She has run a state for a couple of years, and come up pretty fast. I like her a lot and hope she does well, regardless.
For those of you who have not had contact with a Downe’s Syndrome child or adult, I have to say the experiences I have had were full of love and charm and happiness. Bless the Palin family for bringing that child forth.
- She’s under investigation for charges of firing Alaska’s Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan, after allegedly “Palin, her family or members of her administration pressured Monegan to fire an Alaska state trooper involved in a rough divorce from Palin’s sister.” http://www.adn.com/monegan/story/478090.html
For those splitting hairs, she won’t say she believes in Creationism, or rejects Evolution. But she did say,
‘Teach both. You know, don’t be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it’s so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.’
A favorite post of mine from the comments on that page:
“Where’s the Phlogiston Theory of Combustion in my chemistry class?”
To be brief, the one comment I have time to give my opinon about it the
one where the person said, McCain showed poor judgement in picking Palin, becuz she might be the next Prez. Well, everyone knows that the President does not rule alone. The same advisors McCain picks, and he already said he will take counsel with Pawlenty and Romney, one of the best business minds around, will be available as will many others from both parties.
Oh, and Anne, McCain had over 15,000 at the VP announcement and they looked pretty happy about being there. Still not saying he’s the best man out there for the job, but I feel a strength there, I don’t see in Obama, yet.
A little more on the accusations that Ms. Palin pressed for the firing of her sister’s ex-husband:
There’s a tape of (Palin’s director of boards and commissions) Frank Bailey’s call to the Department of Public Safety, in which he demanded the ex-brother-in-law’s firing:
“The Palins can’t figure out why nothing’s going on,” Bailey said in the recorded phone call. “So Todd and Sarah are scratching their heads saying ‘Why is this guy representing the department, he’s a horrible recruiting tool.’ You know?”
Does McCain think he’ll draw the now-undecided Hillary fans to his camp just because he chose a running mate who is a woman? Like, Hillary and Palin are totally interchangeable because they both have vaginas? Give me a break.
America’s voters are not that stupid. Hillary and Palin have nothing, NOTHING in common other than their gender.
The only rational explanation is that Palin’s conservatism will impress the Christian conservatives, who would otherwise be turned off by McCain’s more mainstream approach to issues important to the religious right.
This choice changes the tone of McCain’s platform emphasizing experience and knowledge of foreign affairs. He’s got to drop that now and turn in a new direction.
(BTW, the Obama speech was very good, but his “A More Perfect Union” speech will always be my favorite because, in the words of Jon Stewart, “Barack Obama talked to us about race as if we were adults.”)
Second, anyone know how many houses Palin owns? I’m guessing she’s a last minute scramble pick after the previous Romney pick fell through with last week’s endless how-many-houses discussion. That would also explain why she doesn’t seem to have been thoroughly vetted (ie not know what the VP actually does, as of a month ago: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12969.html).
Does McCain think he’ll draw the now-undecided Hillary fans to his camp just because he chose a running mate who is a woman? Like, Hillary and Palin are totally interchangeable because they both have vaginas?
If one believes the small number of die-hard pro-Hillary yahoos that kept getting recycled on CNN this week: Yes, having a vagina is more important than electing a president who supports equal pay for equal work, or supporting abortion rights for women who are the victims of rape or incest.
As someone posting on one of the national blog threads wrote (paraphrased), “Hillary will be certain to be out in force on the campaign trail this fall, rallying her supporters, and making sure that this inexperienced conservative beauty queen doesn’t break that glass ceiling before she does.” Similarly, this is the best thing to make sure that Bill Clinton also continues to be an enthusiastic supporter of Barack Obama’s campaign. All thought of the Clintons secretly hoping/working for an Obama loss has got to be dead after this choice.
Which reminds me of another great moment from the Democratic Convention: Hillary giving the best speech of her life. She’s really grown into a forceful speaker over the last 6 months.
In the WaPo piece Britt links to, National Review contributor Lisa Schiffren says: “Talk about a role model for our daughters: Annie Oakley in the halls of power!”
A woman who goes around shooting things is a great role model for young girls?
she reminds me of a slightly less yucky michelle bachmann. or maybe more yucky, but we just don’t know all the details yet.
bright, reducing teen pregnancies might sound like the wishy washy “middle road” approach to the abortion issue to you, but the bottom line is that fewer unwanted pregnancies *has* to equal fewer abortions. And there’s no disputing that our rate of teen pregnancy is among the highest in the western world. (http://www.umm.edu/pediatrics/pregnancy.htm)
With our teens about as sexually active as those in Europe but half as likely to use birth control and with outdated fraidy-cat health programs, it’s no wonder.:
So Hillary supporters are supposed to be dumb enough to see Palin as a substitute for Clinton? How insulting.
Look, I love it that she had her baby instead of an abortion, and I’m all for reducing the number of abortions. But overturning Roe v. Wade isn’t the answer.
Jailing women is not an effective method of birth control.
McCain really doesn’t get it.
She’s female Biden’s Male
She’s outside Beltway Biden’s a Washington Insider
She upset her state party Obama’s the party darling
She’s prolife (and walks the walk) Obama and Biden are prochoice
Her son serves in the military This is rare in either party
II hit enter to soon but the list could go on. Palin was a brilliant choice. I am the ultimate independent - I have voted democrat, I have voted Republican and I have voted 3rd party (more often than not) - I will vote for McCain
Oh and the mentoring relationship makes Biden look like a babysitter on the democratic ticket. The setup is backwards.
I agree with David Henson about her being a good choice– especially if we forget the VP doesn’t really do anything.
If elected on the ticket, she’ll preside over the Senate, but she’ll only be able to vote if there is a tie (pretty limited powers, overall, but that is power isn’t it).
The point is that someone is allowing her to set the frame for how we will see things. We’re not remembering her limited powers as VP. Of course, McCain is a bit aged…
In other words– IMHO– what difference does it make if she’s for or against drilling, abortions, etc.? None, really, but it sounds good.
And as for her being a woman and appealing to Hillary voters– probably only if those people are single issue voters?
BTW– the convention was good. Now for the after– the time where the news will stop showing stories, etc. And on to the RNC.
Heh heh, speaking of Hubert Humphrey– my father was on the school board in Burnsville, and someone targeted him with constant barrage– saying things like “You’re just like Hubert Humphrey, you SOB.” I was horrified– who was this Hubert Humphrey? Until I figured out that it wasn’t a bad thing… and that my father was proud. Good times. That’s politics for you. One person’s swear word can be the name of another person’s hero.
A few meandering thoughts-first of all, age. McCain is 72. If you look around , people who have taken good care of themselves, especially after 40, and more so from the beginning of their lives are very mentally agile and will continue to be so as long as they work it. He could easily go two terms to 80 and still be young enough for the job. Remember Clinton had a quadruple bypass at like what 54? It’s not age as much as it is care and dna. He has proved that he can take the rigors of almost two years of campaigning across the country and looks pretty good. I can see the toll on Obama. But I wouldn’t let that disqualify him. I hope he is healthy, but his mom did die of cancer in her 50s. Peace and blessings there.
Another thing, McCain has seen houses, he said four in different parts of the country, where they do business often and three for the kids and investments. It doesn’t pay to rent out places…they are expensive. The place we rented in Tulsa, a two bedroom apt before we bought our home
was climbing up to $900 a month, and in Chicago, that’s way cheap.
My sister has three houses and she and her husband fit middle class American to a tea, they just don’t waste a lot of money on frivolous things.
Anyway, Obama is not one of the people. He is a rare commodity, an exceptional man, and I don’t say that out of racism. I grew up with all kinds of kids as my friends and still have them in Chicago…my neighborhood was voted the most successful city integrated neighborhood in the country a couple of times, so don’t go there. We wouldn’t want one of us to live in the White House, we can’t even decide who fed the dog last, iykwim. So, if Obama isn’t a regular guy, then McCain doesn’t have to be either. This era of self loathing to get over on other people makes me feel really bad for everyone who cannot admire true accomplishment, etc of another human being without first being duped into thinking they are one of us.
Both of them have been able to live the American Dream, though not the one we all dream because we all have different dreams once the bills are taken care of.
You have spent the past few months being a pretty consistent anti-Obama voice in these forums, largely based on your assessment that he was inexperienced and had come out of nowhere. Now, you’re saying Palin is a good choice even though she has less experience, and also came out of nowhere - and I’d call city councilor and mayor in a town of 7,700 more “nowhere” than Chicago, if we were looking purely at contact with people as a statistic.
I actually don’t think Palin’s a bad choice for those reasons, but possessing massive amounts of experience has never been my top criterion for a candidate.
I do think the choice is going to bite McCain’s campaign pretty hard though. She’s not fully vetted, or this mess about firing someone who wasn’t helping her sister’s ugly divorce wouldn’t have been allowed through. I also think it’s a purely cynical choice which essentially means McCain is saying to American women: all you care about is getting a woman into power, so here ya go…
…Vote With Your Vaginas, Ladies!
As if women can’t dislike other women, as if men vote for men simply because they are men, right? McCain’s saying that’s what women must do!
More weak plotting from an out-of-touch man who doesn’t even know where the middle class starts or ends - despite the fact that, other than the low-entry-threshold “People Who Are Alive” demographic, it makes up the largest single group of American citizens.
good lord. people who have 3 houses do not “fit middle class america to a ‘tea’”
if you want to be for mccain, be for mccain, if you want to be for palin, be for her. but let’s not pretend they aren’t rich. There is a difference between becoming successful, as the Obamas have, after starting out poor or middle class, and marrying or inheriting millions of dollars. Personally, I’m not equating one with moral goodness and the other with evil, but let’s not pretend there’s no difference between being really incredibly rich and being middle class. Not only is there a difference, it isn’t a difference which is made by simply “not spending money on frivolous things.” Such statements are an insult to the true middle class, which is trying to find enough money for frivolous stuff like health insurance, college educations, and food, not for a second and third house.
Steve Branchflower, the former federal prosecutor who is conducting the investigation, has a three-month contract for his work, which started August 1, and will end October 31, according to Alaska State Senate Judiciary Committee chair, Hollis French (D), who is overseeing the probe. French told TPMmuckraker that he expects Branchflower to release his report in the days before the November 4th presidential election.
I liked these comments from a Talking Points reader:
“A Babe on the Ticket”
By Graduate Student - August 29, 2008, 2:43PM
From the mouth of rush limbaugh. I think the McCain campaign is in for a rude awakening. Women, like my mom, did not vote for Hllary because she was a babe or wore fancy earrings or pantsuit. She represented a movement of women who have faced trials and overcome them. She represented someone who worked harder than the boys by being one of them. She was not a babe, nor was she a trophy wife. She is/was a voice for all the women who had been passed over for a job or a raise, the women struggling to get by, the women whose husbands are not always faithful-the everyday woman, who thought my life may be in dissary but I can still make it. My mom referred to her as the bitch men hate, and women love.
Sarah Palin is no Hillary Clinton. For all of her meager accomplishments, she has one accomplishment that will make middle age hillary voters,like my mom, go crazy. She was first runner up to Miss Alaska. Not that there is anything wrong with this, but Sarah Palin represents a bitch men love, and women hate. She is the lady that skirts by through her looks, while Hillary studies, she parties, while Hillary pulls herself by her bootstraps, this lady rides in on a MAN’s coattail. I honestly don’t know what the McCain camp was thinking but this is beyond condescending. You are entrusting the entire nation into a woman whose only concern in her state is overgrowth of reindeers. You Senator McCain are willing to lose this country in order to win an election.
Sorry for the provacative language, but that’s how my mom rolls
Good points. A bit vituperative and reductive, but some solid points that uncover a good chunk of the psychological narrative dredged up by this VP pick.
C’mon Brendon, we all know you are just jealous cuz she’s better looking than you.
It does appear that in one fell swoop McCain has balanced the tickets on inexperience, cronyism and “no more old guard need apply”. So, let’s consider some issues. Like, who gets to pay for all these promises everyone will start making.
I heard today that the top 5% of the taxpayers already pay 60% of the taxes, a figure which is consistent with my own analysis. So, when do we reach the tipping point and see the effect of such income redistribution tactics?
Admittedly, Income inequality is a serious problem for a free society. But confiscatory taxes are also a serious problem. Even the Beatles (who surely must be seen as counterculture icons, at least in their public face) sang about the taxman (”one for you, nineteen for me”). There are two often conflicting goals: (1) encouraging the freedom that rewards people who solve problems (by creating better goods, ala Adam Smith) and (2) the desire to not disenfranchise the poor. I fear that today’s politics are more about the rule of the mob (get your guillotines boys, they’re robbing our society) than they are about the ideal of civil discourse with an ability to disagree without being disagreeable. “Fetch me my knitting kit, I feel a trial coming on.”
OMG Brendon, what? Vote with your vaginas? Please.
And Hillary isn’t one of the boys. She is a assertive and fantastic woman.
Let’s see– how many times during this campaign did people talk about how John McCain is a man? Did they say things like “That’s a man there!” No, they didn’t.
We’ll truly be someplace the day we can just discuss “people” and “viewpoints” rather than “gender” or “race”.
Not getting your point, Holly, and either you’re not getting mine or distorting it…
My point is that McCain chose Palin, very cynically, pretty much only because she’s a woman. That “Vote with your vaginas, ladies!” is McCain’s pandering thought process in this choice. It’s not what I’m saying, it’s my interpretation of McCain’s simplistic and patronizing rationale for this choice.
Brendon #43 makes no sense at all since Hillary’s own party did not pick her. If anything John McCain is saying “you fools you had the whole deal locked down with Hillary as VP and now you have handed it to me.” Plus let’s be honest Hillary wouldn’t have been anywhere accepting her husband happened to have been president ( “pulled herself up by her bootstraps” -please ) - Palin did it on her own merits. The woman eats mooose burgers, married an Eskimo and kicked the Alaska Republican establishment to the curb - what more could you ask for in a VP or from McCain ? I’ll bet her husband thinks twice before rubbing his nose with anyone behind her back !
I disagree about your assessment of Hillary, and your comparison of Palin to Clinton. She beat a corrupt Republican governor for the party’s nomination, wouldn’t qualify that as kicking the whole establishment to the curb. And, somehow, eating mooseburgers and marrying an Eskimo in Alaska hardly strikes me as revolutionary.
She’s an ultra-conservative, anti-science, anti-environment beauty queen, and while it would be nice to have the beauty queen aspect, the rest would be a repeat of the current pres / vice-pres.
There were much better women in the Republican party that McCain could have picked.
Palin beat a corrupt governor - Hillary grabbed pork belly payola for her Governor husband. The party darlings are always the ones who accept the goodies and play ball - a la Obama’s 4 million dollar home.
I got your point, Brendon. It was just so crude and flippant that I thought we should talk about it. It wasn’t McCain’s words so I guess the air quotes won’t work.
I think voters vote for people they can relate to– Palin’ll might bring a certain amount of women who listen to her struggle and then vote for her. Not because of the woman thing, I hope, but just because of the relate thing.
One thing for sure, we shouldn’t listen to Palin’s political point of view on the issues like abortion, drilling for oil, and creationism. She should be building up McCain and his view on the issues, but instead she looks like a renegade that’ll clean up Washington. McCain stood by her and looked, well, meek, as they introduced her. How much power does the VP have? Who cares about her stance on the issues and her ability to kick the Alaskan Republican establishment to the curb ? What does that imply– she’ll do it in Washington? Give her a pair of cleats and she’ll wander the Whitehouse hall, kicking?
But yet, I keep reading about her balancing the ticket. She’s overbearing on the ticket, really, and it’s weird. What is the Republican party thinking…
Bright’s point is that McCain could live until he is O-L-D-E-R, but maybe they picked someone who will really be sitting in the Oval office because he’s not going to make it?
How does Obama Biden ticket get past the comments of Biden? Where Biden says that Obama is not ready to be President and the comments that he would be privileged to be on the SAME ticket as McCain.
I got your point, Brendon. It was just so crude and flippant that I thought we should talk about it.
You definitely got part of my point. However, the remark was crude and flippant because that was another part of my point - that McCain campaign strategy on choosing Palin was as crude and flippant as that statement.
There were other good Republican women he passes over; he went for the ultra-conservative, beauty queen. I think it was a cynical choice predicated on a gross (crude and flippant) over-simplification of half our population.
I like what you say about the ticket being oddly unbalanced in Palin’s favor now… hadn’t thought about it that way. Her selection could hurt McCain by making him look comparatively weak. Interesting thought.
Well, I got your point that McCain might have picked a woman because she’s a woman. But it’s demeaning to say “Vote with your vagina.” You could have simply said people shouldn’t vote for her simply because she’s a woman.
To that I say “Some will vote for her because she’s a woman” and that’s okay. But if they go vote for her because she’s a woman, that’s not voting with your vagina. That’s the demeaning part.
What we might look at instead is that other thing– did the Republicans decide that McCain was not electable on his own? Why such a conservative? Why did the daddy party pick a woman who is pro-life?
Yes, thanks for saying you liked my point (that he looked comparatively weak). And it is odd that its so unbalanced.
Holly,
It was Britt Ackerman who first brought up vaginas, back in post 27. Brendon may have been playing on that.
Holly, you also wrote:
One thing for sure, we shouldn’t listen to Palin’s political point of view on the issues like abortion, drilling for oil, and creationism.
Why not? The job of the Vice President isn’t just to attend state funerals, the job of the Vice President is to be ready to assume the role of President in a moment of deep crisis. And apparently, this woman is the kind of person McCain wants to cover his, and the nation’s back.
Milquetoast political opinions are just fine in a VP. Crazy nonsensical stuff is not.
Well, I guess I missed Britt’s comments about vaginas. Not exactly the same point as Brendon, but if she were demeaning– it’s even worse to be demeaning of each other as women, Britt. Maybe Britt wasn’t being demeaning and simply pointing out gender differences.
Patrick, you don’t get it. We’re not supposed to vote for the VP. I’m not voting for Biden because he’s the electable one. In fact, I think Biden has already proven he’s not electable on his own. Here comes Palin with oddly right wing ideas, and she’s inexperienced. There are plenty of logical conclusions– what’s best to talk about as DFLers?
FOr the last time, I am not a Republican! To be brutally honest, I don’t think any of these people are oval office worthy. Thanks to JFK and WJC who made a mockery out of the Presidency with their low morality and egocentric peacocking around, no decent possiblity of a man or woman wants the office.
That and the American Presidency does not hold any real power any more and has not for the past twenty years. It’s a joke. hahahahahahaha!
But, least of all Obama. I just finally got word and you can believe me or not, Obama has not done well in even a small Chicago neighborhood. And this is from the people there in the trenches who’s names I may not devulge. In fact, the crime rate went up double digits since Obama got on that scene. And most of the steel mills in that area shut down in the 70s.
He wasn’t helping more than a handful of people.
Plus, anyone who starts preaching from the bible and changes accents three or four times during his acceptance speech…
Don’t talk to me about Sarah’s in-laws until Obama brings his brother here. Obama even said during his acceptance speech, help the famile and no one can make it by pulling up their bootstraps if the don’t have bootstraps, which is exactly what I wrote to him last week about his brother being unable to grow any sort of success on $1 per month.
And besides that, I don’t know any Americans who wouldn’t take a little short cut help from officials to help out a bad situation. Very few wouldn’t.
Not saying it’s right, just saying it’s so.
Obama was handpicked by the Kennedy clan because his resume looks good on paper and he fits the profile, but as far as experience…he will be getting his directions from the Kennedys et al. Maybe you like that sort of thing. Fine. It’s a free country so far, kind of, sort of.
All the great people become CEOs or Popes. So, there, take that Northfield! (I’m just being wild and outrageous for entertainment value.
Make of it what you will, but don’t put your words into my posts.)
As for women, Hillary had such a bad attitude coming through her 99% of the time, that I could never see her bringing about harmony amongst any nations. She alienated half the women in this country with her cookie remark and the other half when she said, oH, BIll, it’s OKAy, you do whatever you want under the desk and make a fool out of me, this country and embarass your child to the ultimate max, it’s okay.
At least Sarah has replaced Hillary’s smarminess with spunk and charm.
Plus Sarah birthed five children on top of it all.
Oh, Bright, what’s going on with you, there. Let me look back– it seems people are telling you what party you might belong to. Hmm. That’s not good.
Yes, Sarah birthed five. But Hillary has good points, too. I wonder how much of what we know about Hillary is really the news point of view. Personally, In the latter parts of the campaign, I thought she sounded like she was yelling, as if no one could hear her, or see her for what she was. I was a Hillary person until I became an Obama person, and so I hope she gets better advice for her next time around.
Hmm, and that forgive Bill thing. Yes. Except, did she yell at him and then they worked it out… or did she just say “That’s okay, honey.”
Britt actually said Palin and Hillary were interchangeable because they both have vagina”s” (which would make them unique candidates) but I assume she meant because they each have “a” vagina. However, lacking even a sensitive side, I still like McCain’s choice. I think Independents are less concerned about what candidates think and more about what they have done. Both McCain and Palin, although politicians, have at times shown an ability to think selflessly and to break ranks with their party - these are qualities this vagina-less Independent values.
I just finally got word and you can believe me or not, Obama has not done well in even a small Chicago neighborhood. And this is from the people there in the trenches who’s names I may not devulge.
I feel like a broken record saying it, but I will consider the allegations of your unsupported rumor when someone produces some evidence to support it.
the American Presidency does not hold any real power any more and has not for the past twenty years.
I think George Bush and Dick Cheney have thoroughly disproven this statement. Its not just anyone who can start a war, or lock up people at their whim.
I don’t know any Americans who wouldn’t take a little short cut help from officials to help out a bad situation. Very few wouldn’t.
Not saying it’s right, just saying it’s so.
I would never do such a thing as she is alleged to have done. Also, you should meet my very large number of honest, decent, and upstanding friends and family members, who would never do such a thing. And some of them are even from Chicago.
If the allegations against Gov. Palin are true, then she has grossly abused her power in office. There is no excuse for that - except that she didn’t do it. (Which might be true. We’re still in the evidence-gathering phase on this.)
Plus Sarah birthed five children on top of it all.
My grandmother birthed seven. Is she therefore more qualified to be (vice) president?
Patrick, you don’t get it. We’re not supposed to vote for the VP. I’m not voting for Biden because he’s the electable one. In fact, I think Biden has already proven he’s not electable on his own. Here comes Palin with oddly right wing ideas, and she’s inexperienced. There are plenty of logical conclusions– what’s best to talk about as DFLers?
Thanks Holly. I do get that. My initial interest in Palin (played out in real time here in this thread), was “who the heck is this woman, and why would he have chosen her?”
I think the best way to approach this is to look at it as a case study in McCain’s judgement: of all the possibilities, why did he choose this woman as his running mate? The only conclusion I can make is he went with a gut feeling and a roll of the dice - knowing that he was going to lose if he couldn’t dramatically change the political narrative right now. So he made a decision for purely political/marketing purposes: trying to find someone who could change the subject right nw, who might attract independent women, and who was conservative enough for his base. Why he thought this particular woman was a better choice for VP than any of the other available options, male or female - including more experienced, tested women such as Kay Bailey Hutchinson - seems to be an important thing to pick apart.
please. the idea that bill clinton disgraced the white house is incredibly offensive yes, i would prefer that he had not lied, and he should be ashamed of having done so. give me a president who played around ANYTIME over one who enriched his rich friends, sent innocents off to war to murder other innocents, ignored the plight of Katrina victims, attacked science and ruined schools.
and how truly trite to bring up the cookie remark: i suppose it’s better that automaton cindy mccain plagiarized her cookie recipe? And by your math, bright, hillary alienated 100% of the women in the u.s. Huh?
Bill Clinton disgraced his name,his family and the Oval office on the world scene. I will never change on that. I believe in forgiveness and do forgive him, but the world will never forget and that is a mark upon our image.
Anyway, Obama now lives in a 4 million dollar home, look it up. He didnt’ get that from the grateful disenfranchised people of the south side of Chicago, I betcha.
And while I say half this and half that, it’s just a figure of speech. If I was gonna go the exact route, I’d give hard numbers. I have a AA in Electronics Technology and Applied Science, so I think I can handle that.
My sister and her husband ARE middle class. Except for a two year sprint as a health club area manager, he has been a high school teacher and she is a part time travel agent, very low key. They made some investments, like Bush urged the American people to do since day one or two of his Presidency. If anyone listened to him and invested in oil and lumber and steel, you would have prolly doubled or tripled your money by now, depending on which companies, etc.
Anyway, my sister raised two boys, sent them to college on partial scholarships and they both now hold great jobs. It’s not that tough, just takes determination and a willingness to make the effort and sacrifice of hanging out too much with friends and such, over time.
Patrick, I don’t know exactly what Palin was supposed to have done, so I will concede the point for now. Also, believe what you want about the neighborhood Obama fought for, it doesn’t make any difference, because people have been fighting for and with and at that neighborhood and others like it for decades, Obama was just one of a long line of do gooders.
I think it’s great that a man of color is aspiring to the White House, but I don’t think it’s great that people are hoping for him to save them. He will not. He is asking them to save themselves now, and I don’t hear anyone listening to that message at all.
I think George Bush and Dick Cheney have thoroughly disproven this statement. Its not just anyone who can start a war, or lock up people at their whim.
Patrick, I am afraid you are wrong about this cuz just about anybody can start a war and lock people up. Think about it.
The kind of power I am talking about is the kind where if you come into the room, people stop and listen and then take your advice. I don’t know if that ever really happens on the world stage, but it does in my mind…and admittedly I have a very active imagination. With this kind of power, there is no war, only willing compliance out of respect and honor.
Anyway, Obama now lives in a 4 million dollar home, look it up. He didnt’ get that from the grateful disenfranchised people of the south side of Chicago, I betcha.
He has, however, sold a lot of books. The advance for The Audacity of Hope alone was $1.9 million. Last year, Barack and Michelle’s combined income was $4.2 million, mostly from sales of his books.
But I do agree that Mr. Obama’s financial interactions with Tony Rezko(sp?) were foolish or poorly thought out - at the very least. How do Obama’s mistakes hold up against the alternatives - McCain’s involvement with Charles Keating, for example? We should each look at the facts, and judge for ourselves.
That’s great that your sister made investments, good for her and I’m glad it worked out. But many middle class people DON”T HAVE ANY MONEY TO INVEST, because they are busy spending it on their health care. Not because they weren’t bright enough to listen to Bush’s fabulous advice on oil and steel.
Bush is rich because he’s from one of the wealthiest families in the country, not from his business acumen. indeed, if he had to live as a result of his business acumen, he’d be in a rental apartment rather than the white house. and this vague obama-bashing, using some kind of vague chicago (he didn’t really help the people there” ) expertise, is unhelpful and vapid.
Griff: Regarding 2008 at the RNC being a repeat of 1968 at the DNC, Please clarify:
Are you wondering about the 1960’s-1970’s FBI “COINTELPRO” efforts to infiltrate groups on the left, to monitor, incite to violence and discredit them? (COINTELPRO is not a wild conspiracy theory, but historical fact)
Or are you assuming that, if there is violence in St. Paul during the RNC and related to the peace movement, it would be instigated only by the peace protest crowds themselves, and not agents provocateurs?
nick waterman, while i have never had the pleasure of your acquaintance,
i would be happy to be helpful if i knew what it is you thought would be helpful as long as it doesn’t involve me sitting down and shutting up like a good little girl and nodding my head and holding up signs in perfect agreement with everything i hear and see.
Hi Bright: I’m not asking you to “be a good girl and agree with everyone else,” I’m just saying that comments like “Obama has not done well in even a small Chicago neighborhood. And this is from the people there in the trenches who’s names I may not devulge,” is just ridiculous, for about 3 different reasons:
1) what does “done well” mean?
2) where are the “trenches”
3) why the cia-like secrecy of people whose names which “cannot be divulged,” as if some fearsome retribution awaited those with the temerity to say something as tepid as “obama has not done well.” What, are Obama’s goons going to bump them off?
4) most importantly, it (your comment) relies on feigning some kind of insider status to shut other people up, as if they did not have access to the truth, but you do, but you can’t say from where.
You can chose to read my rhetoric as demeaning, so be it. I’m not known for soft-pedaling my written words. I chose words based on how they will emphasize a rhetorical argument or advance a story. Sometimes those words can be brutish, but it’s to solidify the point. If I held back certain words or phrases because I thought someone might be offended, I wouldn’t be able to write anything. There’s a difference between you being offended and me being offensive. It’s your judgment only. Nothing I can do about that.
To others here: As for Sarah Palin having five children: I’m failing to see the relevance to helping run the country. It’s an emotional factor in supporting her, yes, but it’s a very weak test for an office like Vice President of the US. Is there a childbirth-frequency / leadership-potential scale that I’ve never seen? A lot of seriously damaged women give birth to even more children. Republicans, historically, have demonized them.
David H., you make a good point in comment #60: there’s the strength of being seen as independent. That will be a plus for the ticket, but I still think the negatives (as they exist now and whatever may be uncovered in the next few months) outweigh that positive.
Bright, I haven’t the slightest idea how you conflate the Obama half-brother story and the allegations of Palin’s illegal firing of a state official based on a family grudge. Obama did what to his half-brother half a world away? If true - and Palin is already backpedaling from earlier assertions of non-involvement in the matter - then she seriously abused her power in service of a personal desire. Pretty much the definition of “corruption”. So much for the squeaky clean reformer. If true, she did this as an elected official using her authority and power as an elected official to fire someone who wouldn’t fire her former brother-in-law. So much for her respect for law and order, a supposed bedrock of conservative values.
Obama is under no obligation to ‘do something’ about any of his half-siblings. His father has several children with several women in different places. The children would be the responsibilty of his late father, not him.
On the other hand, Cindy McCain’s father had another family first and nearly abandoned them, but continued to have some contact with the child and provided some financial support. For McCain, who inherited a fortune, to cut off the meager aid her father clearly intended her sister to have is selfish. She doesn’t need to have a relationship with the half-sister, but she should have honored her father by sharing some of the many millions…or even one of the many houses…Hmmm.
nick, done well, means that he helped clear up the crime, or in some way made a difference in the life style that permeates the very concrete therein.
As I have said before on this forum, in several ways, shapes and forms, I grew up from birth in the neighborhood right next to the neighborhood where Obama was supposedly defending civil rights and organizing people. It is an area with one of the highest crime rates in the country and has been for generations.
I worked in City Hall, my sister worked in City Hall, and as an environmentalist with a high profile, I worked with the politicians, and as a person who used to be concerned with the plight of the black man, I do have some insider information about people such as Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition, Mohamed Ali, all of whom are also from my old neighborhood, or very nearby, and all have or had homes there for many years.
I live in a different type of neighborhood in the U of Chicago area, where Michelle Obama worked to create an outreach program. There are a lot of people who do social and legal work there, and it’s not all that.
The people I know are making some headway right now in their work and don’t wish to be pointed out. I am honoring their request. SO shoot me.
And btw, people who are ill and cannot affort health insurance may have been middle class at one time, but they are no longer, and therefore not
the people I refer to. I refer to people who have expendable income. If people would take that $4.00 per day that they buy pop and stuff with, by the end of one year, they would have almost $1500. They could buy some stock with that.
My sister is middle class, and they have dealt with illnesses, but not the long, long term expensive sort. My sister is almost retired and it took them a while to own three places…she is by all standards middle class.
Brendon, well, when I said what I said about Palin, I said ‘at first glance’, and then I said I didn’t know the whole story, and I still don’t, the investigation has barely even begun to see if an investigation is warranted, as far as I can tell from here. I can also say that messy divorce can mean a lot of things, like maybe someone was messing with someone and needed to get gone from public service and someone wasn’t wanting someone gone cuz of the blue brotherhood thing and maybe that didn’t sit too well with someone…we just don’t know yet.
But, Barrack’s claiming, take care of your brothers and sisters and family is all and no one can lift themselves up by their bootstraps if they don’t even have a bootstrap, and then in his own life, he has left his half brother in Kenya living in a shack on a dollar a day, not wanting to impose on his brother. For goodness sake. Can’t he bring him here and help him get
a pell grant or something??? At least walk the talk on that level, preacher man.
As for the five children, in my head I was thinking about how everyone says how great Fred Astaire was, when all the time Ginger Rogers was doing the same things Fred was only on high heels and backwards. As a performer, I am sure you can get that reference. As a man, you don’t know how much a woman gives toward giving birth, or maybe you do?
Bright said: “And btw, people who are ill and cannot affort health insurance may have been middle class at one time, but they are no longer, and therefore not
the people I refer to. I refer to people who have expendable income. ”
so all middle class people can afford health insurance? and middle class by definition includes “expendable” income? This will be news to much of the middle class. You know, the ones with only one house, or none.
and I’m just going to quit now, because the interminable nonsense about the half-brother has sent me over the edge. pell grants are for citizens. And why the indignant moral outrage over and over about a half brother whose circumstances you know NOTHING about (except what you have read), but a complete lack of moral outrage over the income discrepancies and poverty (not to even mention deaths, lack of medical care, etc) created right here in your country by george bush, where despite the ever more generous description of what constitutes “poverty”, more people fall into it every day?
i do realize i broke the rule and was sarcastic in the last post, but I must say, that if sarcasm is more offensive than this:
“I worked with the politicians, and as a person who used to be concerned with the plight of the black man, I do have some insider information about people such as Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition, Mohamed Ali, all of whom are also from my old neighborhood, or very nearby, and all have or had homes there for many years.
I live in a different type of neighborhood in the U of Chicago area, where Michelle Obama worked to create an outreach program. There are a lot of people who do social and legal work there, and it’s not all that.”
Yep, Obama does say these things about family, and I will concede the point that there may be a little personal hypocrisy in the situation with his half-brother. However, it’s not a function of his office as a Senator or his position as a presidential candidate. It’s a family matter, and I don’t know enough about the dynamics of his family to know why it persists, and I don’t think it’s indicative of his ability to lead since it is not a governance decision he’s making.
How much does he even know his half-brother? (They’re twenty years and one big ocean apart, are they not?) Is it more honorable for Obama to let his half-brother figure his own way in life or to just give him hand outs? From your arguments, I think you’d much rather see his half-brother do for himself, rather than have Barack do for him.
Palin’s actions are actually under investigation, by the Alaska legislature and by the Alaska Attorney General’s office. It is not the case that “the investigation has barely even begun to see if an investigation is warranted” as you stated. While it may be a family matter, they are actions alleged to have been carried out under her direction, using her power and authority as Alaska’s Governor - in other words, abuse of power and corruption of public office.
Your former brother-in-law being an ass to your sister - apart from his duties as a State Trooper - does not equate with an actionable cause for dismissal of his supervisor.
Again, regarding childbirth, somehow I’ve picked up that pain is involved. Does that mean anyone who suffers physical pain is made more ready to lead? The more pain, the better the leader? What about emotional pain? Does that count on the proficiency of leadership scale? What about a man who has five children? Is he more fit for executive office than a childless man, or a man with only one child?
As I said, it’s an emotional hook, to be sure, but that’s all it is. The whole “mom” angle will “play well in Peoria” perhaps, but let’s not confuse that with demonstrated ability.
It’s a grave disservice to women who have no children to consider that they are less fit for leadership based only on that criterion. This is not to say that being a mother doesn’t teach a woman many things about life, but as a marker for leadership potential at this level, it is meaningless and absurd at best, dubious and misleading at worst.
First of all, great leaders lead by example, not do as I say and not as I do.
Everyone knows that’ doesn’t work.
Obama has not yet answered the questions about his brother…the news refers to his book. If there was no way to get his brother some help, then so be it. I apologize, but I kind of think there is something to do for him. That’s my opinion, and I am entitled to it, nick and BE, without being belittled.
As for the five children scam I am trying to pull, come on. If you don’t think it’s harder to accomplish a full career and give birth to five kids, than it is to accomplish a career without giving birth…all other things being equal, which they never would be anyway, you have another think coming. I’m just giving my opinion, it doesn’t mean a hill of beans around here or anywhere else. Give it a rest, you two.
just to be clear, Bright, I entirely agree that you are entitled to your opinion. And that you should not be belittled for it. But belittling (for that is precisely what you are doing, trying to claim that Obama’s achievements are less than they are) Clinton or Obama or anyone else ought to be out of bounds for you, too. And it is one thing to state your opinion, and something entirely else to claim that you are in possession of facts somehow denied to the rest of us, but still unassailable.
I hardly think I was belittling you, Bright. I pointed out the difference in both the nature and meaning of the Barack half-brother story and the Palin former brother-in-law issue.
Obviously, I know it’s your opinion and I know you’re entitled to it. I never said you weren’t. I am, likewise, expressing my opinion and challenging the basis for yours. That’s debate.
As for the mother-of-five angle, I never even hinted that having five children and a career was the same as just having the career minus the children. My argument has been, and continues to be: there is nothing inherent in giving birth five times that qualifies someone for higher executive office. It’s an emotional hook for some, but it shouldn’t be considered as a reflection of her merit to help lead a country.
As for your assertions about the difficulties she must face as a mother of five and a Governor, certainly that would be
533 Comments
Well, for starters, Obama’s speech was simply spectacular. Even Pat Buchanan was gushing effusively - so much so that on MSNBC, Keith Olbermann had to cut him off to go to a commercial break. Contemplate that for a second.
Barack Obama is a truly great orator, whose only rival in the gift of inspiring and persuading in the last half-century is Ronald Reagan. That’s a very good thing, because Obama’s skills are used in service of a sane, positive vision for our future, and because we desperately need to bring about a dramatic course correction after the terrible, foolish mistakes of the last 8 years.
The fights will go on, but there is no way that the grumpy old man with an evolving reflexive vocal tic of “noun, verb, and ‘because I survived in a P.O.W. prison camp’” can ultimately prevail against Barack Obama and the Democrats. Ours is an inspired, inspiring, and thoughtful leader, and we have the advantage of being right.
Bruce wrote, on another thread,
Bruce,
It’s not so much about a cult of personality, but rather a recognition that great oration is a necessary skill for great leadership.
For an example of how a lack of the same leads to failure: Kerry, anyone?
Speaking of him, Kerry actually gave a great convention speech… four years too late.
Let’s see, being too popular is a bad thing? The fact that Obama drew 94,000 people and McCain can’t give away enough tickets to fill 10,000 seats for his VP announcement means McCain is the serious candidate. Obama’s celebrating the anniversary of the “I have a dream” speech and McCain is celebrating his campaign pick on the anniversary of the Katrina nightmare.
Now it makes sense. And when McCain loses, he should come to Northfield. He’d fit right in at City Hall.
Bruce,
I’ll also go out on a limb and bet that there’ll be plenty of wet eyes during the RNC convention, as well. I guarantee that McCain’s P.O.W. years will be presented to great effect, and many tears will be shed. Of course, it will be during someone else’s speech. But does that make it any less of a ‘cult of personality’ thing? I would say not.
It would be a lot of work, but if it would help you to cast a vote for Barack Obama, I could force myself to sit through (well, skim, anyway) the entire RNC convention, and put together a tape of teary eyes for you.
Patrick, speaking of great convention speeches, did you ever hear Hubert Humphrey’s 1948 convention speech? It was revolutionary, and risky–alienating the southern Democrats.
MPR did a show on it earlier this summer:
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/07/14/midday2/
Curt,
No, that was before my time. I’ll give it a listen this morning.
Curt,
Thanks for the tip. You’re right, that was a great and important speech. I was passingly familiar with Strom Thurmond’s Dixiecrat rebellion, as well as Truman’s order for desegregation of the Army, but I had not realized Hubert Humphrey’s prominent role in that fight. That was impressive.
Patrick, my father and his brothers were active in the DFL, starting in the mid 40’s. They knew Humphrey and Mondale etc. When I was old enough to become politically aware, in the mid 60’s, it seemed odd to me that they thought of Humphrey as a sort of forward looking groundbreaker. At the time, Humphrey was LBJ’s loyal vice president. I remember reading about how he sat in the White House and could hear the chants of the protesters outside, “Hubert Humphrey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today!”
Anyway the 1948 convention speech gives one an idea of Humphrey’s true role in this nation’s history.
And yes, Obama’s speech last night was great.
Anyone have a prediction on whether there’ll be a “Recreate ‘68!!” debacle next week in St. Paul? I hope the hell not.
The speeches by Obama, Kerry and the Clintons were all great and full of drama. The governor of Montana, Brian Schweitzer, was highly entertaining. I really could have done without the Spielberg films and the Superbowl halftime production values. I’m a loyal Democrat, but I have a hard time squaring the repeated emphasis on middle class values and ordinary working Americans with the over-the-top Hollywood glitz of last night.
I hate to break up this love fest, but I thought the Obama speech was way too long and boring. He said some good things, no doubt. My favorite was that government was here to help us, not hurt us. Also, I loved when he said we are not blue states and we are not red states, we are the United States of America, and he got what I believe to be the loudest response from the gathering of 75,000 - 84,000 people. That’s where Obama shines, unification, but only if he doesn’t have a great and proper opponent.
But as for substance, and how he was going to deliver all this help without taxing the middle class at all…and how he made it seem like he was going to save anyone in this country who has any problem at all, well, I think he took it too far. He tried to show the people that it was they who needed to do the work, but I don’t think that message got very far…when Kennedy did the same thing, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country, people took it to heart. Different times, I suppose. Well, we will see what McCain does. He will have to come up with an Oscar winning level performance to out do Obama. We shall soon see.
He also gave the Clinton, as in Bill, lineabout hoping to reduce the number of abortions, by reducing teen pregnancies. Weak attempt at grasping for the middle road here. And there is also that line again about restructuring the military…on his website, he plans to get 65,000 more army recruits and almost 100,000 more military personnel, besides the National Guard. He doesn’t say how.
I don’t think anyone is taking apart his words. He’s not THAT smart. And Biden, I will say again is old school. Way old school foreign policy that DFLers say has failed over and over again. Plus Obama didn’t vote against the law recently passed that gave the phone companies the right to turn over all the records to the govt on demand. Bah!
Patrick, I slightly checked out the Liver Tearians, and they are in a scrambled egg mess of so many factions, I’d have to call them the Denver
omelette of political parties. This is what I dislike about parties, if you don’t think exactly like the party line, then you are OUT on your BUM.
It’s brainwashing through and through most of the time. I dislike that very much, but thanks, anyway.
Griff, I have heard that there will be. Peace out.
C’mon Griff; of course there will not. Do you remember ‘68? 2008 is nothing like 1968.
Bright,
I look forward to your commentary on the McCain convention.
Bright, you’re a great lady, but no one will ever meet your standards. The whole point Obama is making is that this campaign is about people like you and Patrick and me all getting up out of the bleachers and working with the people we don’t like to find solutions. The process is messy and sometimes ugly and it seems to take forever, but there is no one candidate who is going to do it for us.
If you want a lesson in change, rent “1776″ which outlines the highly political process of compromise that kept the Declaration of Independence from going up in smoke. (It’s a really odd musical, but give it a chance…) Or for a much more depressing, yet uplifting, movie, rent “Amazing Grace” and watch the emotional, exhausting, long battle to end slave trading in England.
We can’t just watch TV with the remote in our hands, clicking through the channels until we find the perfect political package. Life isn’t the Home Shopping Network or match.com.
So come on, Bright, there are two pretty clear choices this year. Neither is perfect, but you can’t say there’s no difference.
It was interesting to me that the protesters in Denver were kept a respectrul 500 yards away (5 football fields according to one NPR reporter, if I remember right). I’m also told that at the RNC they will be allowed within 100 feet of the center (don’t know if that is distance to a back wall or if the delegates will have to run an old-fashioned gauntlet.
I am already burned out on pep-rallies, so I may sit next week out.
And yes, Obama’s speech was well done (I did not have the luxury of a video feed so I had to judge based on the audio only, and I was working at the same time, so may not have enjoyed the full experience).
McCain VP pick: Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin
Patrick, I doubt there will be a riot like at the DNC in Chicago in 1968 but it could get ugly. I hope not because it’ll hurt Obama, I’d guess.
Patrick, you wrote
I guess my trepidation is that history is full of “True Believer” movements led by great orators. I wish group consciousness was raised by reason rather than being aroused by oratory. In the former path lies enlightenment, in the latter lies demagoguery (my thanks to P. Zorn, this time I spell checked).
Bruce,
I agree wholeheartedly: I love reasoned discussion, and wish it was the bedrock of our democracy. Unfortunately, in national politics, reasoned discussion consistently gets killed by cleverly crafted oratory.
I’m just glad that for once, the guy with the brilliant oratory is also the one who comes closest to where reason has led me.
That was a wily pick by McCain … I think it’s the nail in the coffin for Barack/Biden.
All references to Eric Hoffer aside,
ArtOrg will be participating at the UnConvention on Monday and Tuesday from 11am to 10pm at Peavey Plaza in Minneapolis.
Here’s the link to our UnConvention post. We almost taglined this event with “Prints of Rage” but thought better of it in the end. It is a nonpartisan event billed as “performances and participatory culture”!
Well, there goes McCain’s ‘inexperience’ card. In 2005, when Obama was already serving in the US Senate, this woman was still mayor of a town of 9,000.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0808/Obama_camp_belittles_Palin_pick.html
Bruce, when you are right, you are right on!
Anne, thanks for the compliment, but I’m just an ordinary person who wants great men and women in great positions to do what they say they will, and if they cannot, then don’t keep making empty promises. That’s not too much to ask, is it? Furthermore, I don’t think I ever said McCain and Obama were the same.
I am pleased with the selection of Sarah Palin, at first glance. We need a woman in there, and she has the history to prove who she is. She has run a state for a couple of years, and come up pretty fast. I like her a lot and hope she does well, regardless.
For those of you who have not had contact with a Downe’s Syndrome child or adult, I have to say the experiences I have had were full of love and charm and happiness. Bless the Palin family for bringing that child forth.
Interesting facts on Ms. Palin:
- She seems to be a creationist:
http://scienceblogs.com/afarensis/2006/10/27/intelligent_design_and_the_ala/
- She’s under investigation for charges of firing Alaska’s Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan, after allegedly “Palin, her family or members of her administration pressured Monegan to fire an Alaska state trooper involved in a rough divorce from Palin’s sister.”
http://www.adn.com/monegan/story/478090.html
For those splitting hairs, she won’t say she believes in Creationism, or rejects Evolution. But she did say,
A favorite post of mine from the comments on that page:
“Where’s the Phlogiston Theory of Combustion in my chemistry class?”
To be brief, the one comment I have time to give my opinon about it the
one where the person said, McCain showed poor judgement in picking Palin, becuz she might be the next Prez. Well, everyone knows that the President does not rule alone. The same advisors McCain picks, and he already said he will take counsel with Pawlenty and Romney, one of the best business minds around, will be available as will many others from both parties.
Oh, and Anne, McCain had over 15,000 at the VP announcement and they looked pretty happy about being there. Still not saying he’s the best man out there for the job, but I feel a strength there, I don’t see in Obama, yet.
A little more on the accusations that Ms. Palin pressed for the firing of her sister’s ex-husband:
There’s a tape of (Palin’s director of boards and commissions) Frank Bailey’s call to the Department of Public Safety, in which he demanded the ex-brother-in-law’s firing:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/ak_gov_says_staffer_pressed_for_troopers_firing.php
Sounds like she has more in common with Cheney than I would’ve thought.
Does McCain think he’ll draw the now-undecided Hillary fans to his camp just because he chose a running mate who is a woman? Like, Hillary and Palin are totally interchangeable because they both have vaginas? Give me a break.
America’s voters are not that stupid. Hillary and Palin have nothing, NOTHING in common other than their gender.
The only rational explanation is that Palin’s conservatism will impress the Christian conservatives, who would otherwise be turned off by McCain’s more mainstream approach to issues important to the religious right.
This choice changes the tone of McCain’s platform emphasizing experience and knowledge of foreign affairs. He’s got to drop that now and turn in a new direction.
I think that Michael Feldman is right on with his assessment of this choice.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/29/AR2008082901777.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
(BTW, the Obama speech was very good, but his “A More Perfect Union” speech will always be my favorite because, in the words of Jon Stewart, “Barack Obama talked to us about race as if we were adults.”)
First, Bright (#11) …boring?????????
Second, anyone know how many houses Palin owns? I’m guessing she’s a last minute scramble pick after the previous Romney pick fell through with last week’s endless how-many-houses discussion. That would also explain why she doesn’t seem to have been thoroughly vetted (ie not know what the VP actually does, as of a month ago: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12969.html).
Britt,
If one believes the small number of die-hard pro-Hillary yahoos that kept getting recycled on CNN this week: Yes, having a vagina is more important than electing a president who supports equal pay for equal work, or supporting abortion rights for women who are the victims of rape or incest.
As someone posting on one of the national blog threads wrote (paraphrased), “Hillary will be certain to be out in force on the campaign trail this fall, rallying her supporters, and making sure that this inexperienced conservative beauty queen doesn’t break that glass ceiling before she does.” Similarly, this is the best thing to make sure that Bill Clinton also continues to be an enthusiastic supporter of Barack Obama’s campaign. All thought of the Clintons secretly hoping/working for an Obama loss has got to be dead after this choice.
Which reminds me of another great moment from the Democratic Convention: Hillary giving the best speech of her life. She’s really grown into a forceful speaker over the last 6 months.
In the WaPo piece Britt links to, National Review contributor Lisa Schiffren says: “Talk about a role model for our daughters: Annie Oakley in the halls of power!”
A woman who goes around shooting things is a great role model for young girls?
Felicity wrote,
Three.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0808/Palin_Three_houses.html?showall
she reminds me of a slightly less yucky michelle bachmann. or maybe more yucky, but we just don’t know all the details yet.
bright, reducing teen pregnancies might sound like the wishy washy “middle road” approach to the abortion issue to you, but the bottom line is that fewer unwanted pregnancies *has* to equal fewer abortions. And there’s no disputing that our rate of teen pregnancy is among the highest in the western world. (http://www.umm.edu/pediatrics/pregnancy.htm)
With our teens about as sexually active as those in Europe but half as likely to use birth control and with outdated fraidy-cat health programs, it’s no wonder.:
So Hillary supporters are supposed to be dumb enough to see Palin as a substitute for Clinton? How insulting.
Look, I love it that she had her baby instead of an abortion, and I’m all for reducing the number of abortions. But overturning Roe v. Wade isn’t the answer.
Jailing women is not an effective method of birth control.
McCain really doesn’t get it.
She’s female Biden’s Male
She’s outside Beltway Biden’s a Washington Insider
She upset her state party Obama’s the party darling
She’s prolife (and walks the walk) Obama and Biden are prochoice
Her son serves in the military This is rare in either party
II hit enter to soon but the list could go on. Palin was a brilliant choice. I am the ultimate independent - I have voted democrat, I have voted Republican and I have voted 3rd party (more often than not) - I will vote for McCain
Oh and the mentoring relationship makes Biden look like a babysitter on the democratic ticket. The setup is backwards.
I agree with David Henson about her being a good choice– especially if we forget the VP doesn’t really do anything.
If elected on the ticket, she’ll preside over the Senate, but she’ll only be able to vote if there is a tie (pretty limited powers, overall, but that is power isn’t it).
The point is that someone is allowing her to set the frame for how we will see things. We’re not remembering her limited powers as VP. Of course, McCain is a bit aged…
In other words– IMHO– what difference does it make if she’s for or against drilling, abortions, etc.? None, really, but it sounds good.
And as for her being a woman and appealing to Hillary voters– probably only if those people are single issue voters?
BTW– the convention was good. Now for the after– the time where the news will stop showing stories, etc. And on to the RNC.
Heh heh, speaking of Hubert Humphrey– my father was on the school board in Burnsville, and someone targeted him with constant barrage– saying things like “You’re just like Hubert Humphrey, you SOB.” I was horrified– who was this Hubert Humphrey? Until I figured out that it wasn’t a bad thing… and that my father was proud. Good times. That’s politics for you. One person’s swear word can be the name of another person’s hero.
A few meandering thoughts-first of all, age. McCain is 72. If you look around , people who have taken good care of themselves, especially after 40, and more so from the beginning of their lives are very mentally agile and will continue to be so as long as they work it. He could easily go two terms to 80 and still be young enough for the job. Remember Clinton had a quadruple bypass at like what 54? It’s not age as much as it is care and dna. He has proved that he can take the rigors of almost two years of campaigning across the country and looks pretty good. I can see the toll on Obama. But I wouldn’t let that disqualify him. I hope he is healthy, but his mom did die of cancer in her 50s. Peace and blessings there.
Another thing, McCain has seen houses, he said four in different parts of the country, where they do business often and three for the kids and investments. It doesn’t pay to rent out places…they are expensive. The place we rented in Tulsa, a two bedroom apt before we bought our home
was climbing up to $900 a month, and in Chicago, that’s way cheap.
My sister has three houses and she and her husband fit middle class American to a tea, they just don’t waste a lot of money on frivolous things.
Anyway, Obama is not one of the people. He is a rare commodity, an exceptional man, and I don’t say that out of racism. I grew up with all kinds of kids as my friends and still have them in Chicago…my neighborhood was voted the most successful city integrated neighborhood in the country a couple of times, so don’t go there. We wouldn’t want one of us to live in the White House, we can’t even decide who fed the dog last, iykwim. So, if Obama isn’t a regular guy, then McCain doesn’t have to be either. This era of self loathing to get over on other people makes me feel really bad for everyone who cannot admire true accomplishment, etc of another human being without first being duped into thinking they are one of us.
Both of them have been able to live the American Dream, though not the one we all dream because we all have different dreams once the bills are taken care of.
That’s it for me. Long day.
Holly,
I think the phrase your looking for, issued in today’s Democratic talking points, is “A Heartbeat Away From the Presidency.”
Bright,
You have spent the past few months being a pretty consistent anti-Obama voice in these forums, largely based on your assessment that he was inexperienced and had come out of nowhere. Now, you’re saying Palin is a good choice even though she has less experience, and also came out of nowhere - and I’d call city councilor and mayor in a town of 7,700 more “nowhere” than Chicago, if we were looking purely at contact with people as a statistic.
I actually don’t think Palin’s a bad choice for those reasons, but possessing massive amounts of experience has never been my top criterion for a candidate.
I do think the choice is going to bite McCain’s campaign pretty hard though. She’s not fully vetted, or this mess about firing someone who wasn’t helping her sister’s ugly divorce wouldn’t have been allowed through. I also think it’s a purely cynical choice which essentially means McCain is saying to American women: all you care about is getting a woman into power, so here ya go…
…Vote With Your Vaginas, Ladies!
As if women can’t dislike other women, as if men vote for men simply because they are men, right? McCain’s saying that’s what women must do!
More weak plotting from an out-of-touch man who doesn’t even know where the middle class starts or ends - despite the fact that, other than the low-entry-threshold “People Who Are Alive” demographic, it makes up the largest single group of American citizens.
good lord. people who have 3 houses do not “fit middle class america to a ‘tea’”
if you want to be for mccain, be for mccain, if you want to be for palin, be for her. but let’s not pretend they aren’t rich. There is a difference between becoming successful, as the Obamas have, after starting out poor or middle class, and marrying or inheriting millions of dollars. Personally, I’m not equating one with moral goodness and the other with evil, but let’s not pretend there’s no difference between being really incredibly rich and being middle class. Not only is there a difference, it isn’t a difference which is made by simply “not spending money on frivolous things.” Such statements are an insult to the true middle class, which is trying to find enough money for frivolous stuff like health insurance, college educations, and food, not for a second and third house.
An update on the investigation of Ms.Palin:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/palin_probe_could_mean_election.php
She’s already had to revise her statements on the subject since it first broke.
I liked these comments from a Talking Points reader:
Good points. A bit vituperative and reductive, but some solid points that uncover a good chunk of the psychological narrative dredged up by this VP pick.
C’mon Brendon, we all know you are just jealous cuz she’s better looking than you.
It does appear that in one fell swoop McCain has balanced the tickets on inexperience, cronyism and “no more old guard need apply”. So, let’s consider some issues. Like, who gets to pay for all these promises everyone will start making.
I heard today that the top 5% of the taxpayers already pay 60% of the taxes, a figure which is consistent with my own analysis. So, when do we reach the tipping point and see the effect of such income redistribution tactics?
Admittedly, Income inequality is a serious problem for a free society. But confiscatory taxes are also a serious problem. Even the Beatles (who surely must be seen as counterculture icons, at least in their public face) sang about the taxman (”one for you, nineteen for me”). There are two often conflicting goals: (1) encouraging the freedom that rewards people who solve problems (by creating better goods, ala Adam Smith) and (2) the desire to not disenfranchise the poor. I fear that today’s politics are more about the rule of the mob (get your guillotines boys, they’re robbing our society) than they are about the ideal of civil discourse with an ability to disagree without being disagreeable. “Fetch me my knitting kit, I feel a trial coming on.”
Peace.
Ouch, Bruce, you know just how to hurt a guy-dressed-as-a-woman, don’t you?
Well, I’ve got a nicer butt.
OMG Brendon, what? Vote with your vaginas? Please.
And Hillary isn’t one of the boys. She is a assertive and fantastic woman.
Let’s see– how many times during this campaign did people talk about how John McCain is a man? Did they say things like “That’s a man there!” No, they didn’t.
We’ll truly be someplace the day we can just discuss “people” and “viewpoints” rather than “gender” or “race”.
And those who write things like:
just get in the way of progress.
Why did you write that?
Not getting your point, Holly, and either you’re not getting mine or distorting it…
My point is that McCain chose Palin, very cynically, pretty much only because she’s a woman. That “Vote with your vaginas, ladies!” is McCain’s pandering thought process in this choice. It’s not what I’m saying, it’s my interpretation of McCain’s simplistic and patronizing rationale for this choice.
Does that make sense?
Maybe I need to use more air quotes…
Brendon #43 makes no sense at all since Hillary’s own party did not pick her. If anything John McCain is saying “you fools you had the whole deal locked down with Hillary as VP and now you have handed it to me.” Plus let’s be honest Hillary wouldn’t have been anywhere accepting her husband happened to have been president ( “pulled herself up by her bootstraps” -please ) - Palin did it on her own merits. The woman eats mooose burgers, married an Eskimo and kicked the Alaska Republican establishment to the curb - what more could you ask for in a VP or from McCain ? I’ll bet her husband thinks twice before rubbing his nose with anyone behind her back !
David H.,
I disagree about your assessment of Hillary, and your comparison of Palin to Clinton. She beat a corrupt Republican governor for the party’s nomination, wouldn’t qualify that as kicking the whole establishment to the curb. And, somehow, eating mooseburgers and marrying an Eskimo in Alaska hardly strikes me as revolutionary.
She’s an ultra-conservative, anti-science, anti-environment beauty queen, and while it would be nice to have the beauty queen aspect, the rest would be a repeat of the current pres / vice-pres.
There were much better women in the Republican party that McCain could have picked.
Palin beat a corrupt governor - Hillary grabbed pork belly payola for her Governor husband. The party darlings are always the ones who accept the goodies and play ball - a la Obama’s 4 million dollar home.
I got your point, Brendon. It was just so crude and flippant that I thought we should talk about it. It wasn’t McCain’s words so I guess the air quotes won’t work.
I think voters vote for people they can relate to– Palin’ll might bring a certain amount of women who listen to her struggle and then vote for her. Not because of the woman thing, I hope, but just because of the relate thing.
One thing for sure, we shouldn’t listen to Palin’s political point of view on the issues like abortion, drilling for oil, and creationism. She should be building up McCain and his view on the issues, but instead she looks like a renegade that’ll clean up Washington. McCain stood by her and looked, well, meek, as they introduced her. How much power does the VP have? Who cares about her stance on the issues and her ability to kick the Alaskan Republican establishment to the curb ? What does that imply– she’ll do it in Washington? Give her a pair of cleats and she’ll wander the Whitehouse hall, kicking?
But yet, I keep reading about her balancing the ticket. She’s overbearing on the ticket, really, and it’s weird. What is the Republican party thinking…
Bright’s point is that McCain could live until he is O-L-D-E-R, but maybe they picked someone who will really be sitting in the Oval office because he’s not going to make it?
How does Obama Biden ticket get past the comments of Biden? Where Biden says that Obama is not ready to be President and the comments that he would be privileged to be on the SAME ticket as McCain.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVUPqoowf8
The Democratic Party doesn’t need to get past Biden’s comments. Obama is carrying himself on his own.
How is the Republican party going to get past Palin? He doesn’t seem to be carrying himself on his own.
Holly,
You wrote:
You definitely got part of my point. However, the remark was crude and flippant because that was another part of my point - that McCain campaign strategy on choosing Palin was as crude and flippant as that statement.
There were other good Republican women he passes over; he went for the ultra-conservative, beauty queen. I think it was a cynical choice predicated on a gross (crude and flippant) over-simplification of half our population.
I like what you say about the ticket being oddly unbalanced in Palin’s favor now… hadn’t thought about it that way. Her selection could hurt McCain by making him look comparatively weak. Interesting thought.
Well, I got your point that McCain might have picked a woman because she’s a woman. But it’s demeaning to say “Vote with your vagina.” You could have simply said people shouldn’t vote for her simply because she’s a woman.
To that I say “Some will vote for her because she’s a woman” and that’s okay. But if they go vote for her because she’s a woman, that’s not voting with your vagina. That’s the demeaning part.
What we might look at instead is that other thing– did the Republicans decide that McCain was not electable on his own? Why such a conservative? Why did the daddy party pick a woman who is pro-life?
Yes, thanks for saying you liked my point (that he looked comparatively weak). And it is odd that its so unbalanced.
Holly,
It was Britt Ackerman who first brought up vaginas, back in post 27. Brendon may have been playing on that.
Holly, you also wrote:
Why not? The job of the Vice President isn’t just to attend state funerals, the job of the Vice President is to be ready to assume the role of President in a moment of deep crisis. And apparently, this woman is the kind of person McCain wants to cover his, and the nation’s back.
Milquetoast political opinions are just fine in a VP. Crazy nonsensical stuff is not.
Well, I guess I missed Britt’s comments about vaginas. Not exactly the same point as Brendon, but if she were demeaning– it’s even worse to be demeaning of each other as women, Britt. Maybe Britt wasn’t being demeaning and simply pointing out gender differences.
Patrick, you don’t get it. We’re not supposed to vote for the VP. I’m not voting for Biden because he’s the electable one. In fact, I think Biden has already proven he’s not electable on his own. Here comes Palin with oddly right wing ideas, and she’s inexperienced. There are plenty of logical conclusions– what’s best to talk about as DFLers?
FOr the last time, I am not a Republican! To be brutally honest, I don’t think any of these people are oval office worthy. Thanks to JFK and WJC who made a mockery out of the Presidency with their low morality and egocentric peacocking around, no decent possiblity of a man or woman wants the office.
That and the American Presidency does not hold any real power any more and has not for the past twenty years. It’s a joke. hahahahahahaha!
But, least of all Obama. I just finally got word and you can believe me or not, Obama has not done well in even a small Chicago neighborhood. And this is from the people there in the trenches who’s names I may not devulge. In fact, the crime rate went up double digits since Obama got on that scene. And most of the steel mills in that area shut down in the 70s.
He wasn’t helping more than a handful of people.
Plus, anyone who starts preaching from the bible and changes accents three or four times during his acceptance speech…
Don’t talk to me about Sarah’s in-laws until Obama brings his brother here. Obama even said during his acceptance speech, help the famile and no one can make it by pulling up their bootstraps if the don’t have bootstraps, which is exactly what I wrote to him last week about his brother being unable to grow any sort of success on $1 per month.
And besides that, I don’t know any Americans who wouldn’t take a little short cut help from officials to help out a bad situation. Very few wouldn’t.
Not saying it’s right, just saying it’s so.
Obama was handpicked by the Kennedy clan because his resume looks good on paper and he fits the profile, but as far as experience…he will be getting his directions from the Kennedys et al. Maybe you like that sort of thing. Fine. It’s a free country so far, kind of, sort of.
All the great people become CEOs or Popes. So, there, take that Northfield! (I’m just being wild and outrageous for entertainment value.
Make of it what you will, but don’t put your words into my posts.)
As for women, Hillary had such a bad attitude coming through her 99% of the time, that I could never see her bringing about harmony amongst any nations. She alienated half the women in this country with her cookie remark and the other half when she said, oH, BIll, it’s OKAy, you do whatever you want under the desk and make a fool out of me, this country and embarass your child to the ultimate max, it’s okay.
At least Sarah has replaced Hillary’s smarminess with spunk and charm.
Plus Sarah birthed five children on top of it all.
Oh, Bright, what’s going on with you, there. Let me look back– it seems people are telling you what party you might belong to. Hmm. That’s not good.
Yes, Sarah birthed five. But Hillary has good points, too. I wonder how much of what we know about Hillary is really the news point of view. Personally, In the latter parts of the campaign, I thought she sounded like she was yelling, as if no one could hear her, or see her for what she was. I was a Hillary person until I became an Obama person, and so I hope she gets better advice for her next time around.
Hmm, and that forgive Bill thing. Yes. Except, did she yell at him and then they worked it out… or did she just say “That’s okay, honey.”
Britt actually said Palin and Hillary were interchangeable because they both have vagina”s” (which would make them unique candidates) but I assume she meant because they each have “a” vagina. However, lacking even a sensitive side, I still like McCain’s choice. I think Independents are less concerned about what candidates think and more about what they have done. Both McCain and Palin, although politicians, have at times shown an ability to think selflessly and to break ranks with their party - these are qualities this vagina-less Independent values.
Bright,
Hi again.
You wrote:
I feel like a broken record saying it, but I will consider the allegations of your unsupported rumor when someone produces some evidence to support it.
I think George Bush and Dick Cheney have thoroughly disproven this statement. Its not just anyone who can start a war, or lock up people at their whim.
I would never do such a thing as she is alleged to have done. Also, you should meet my very large number of honest, decent, and upstanding friends and family members, who would never do such a thing. And some of them are even from Chicago.
If the allegations against Gov. Palin are true, then she has grossly abused her power in office. There is no excuse for that - except that she didn’t do it. (Which might be true. We’re still in the evidence-gathering phase on this.)
My grandmother birthed seven. Is she therefore more qualified to be (vice) president?
Holly, you wrote:
Thanks Holly. I do get that. My initial interest in Palin (played out in real time here in this thread), was “who the heck is this woman, and why would he have chosen her?”
I think the best way to approach this is to look at it as a case study in McCain’s judgement: of all the possibilities, why did he choose this woman as his running mate? The only conclusion I can make is he went with a gut feeling and a roll of the dice - knowing that he was going to lose if he couldn’t dramatically change the political narrative right now. So he made a decision for purely political/marketing purposes: trying to find someone who could change the subject right nw, who might attract independent women, and who was conservative enough for his base. Why he thought this particular woman was a better choice for VP than any of the other available options, male or female - including more experienced, tested women such as Kay Bailey Hutchinson - seems to be an important thing to pick apart.
please. the idea that bill clinton disgraced the white house is incredibly offensive yes, i would prefer that he had not lied, and he should be ashamed of having done so. give me a president who played around ANYTIME over one who enriched his rich friends, sent innocents off to war to murder other innocents, ignored the plight of Katrina victims, attacked science and ruined schools.
and how truly trite to bring up the cookie remark: i suppose it’s better that automaton cindy mccain plagiarized her cookie recipe? And by your math, bright, hillary alienated 100% of the women in the u.s. Huh?
Bill Clinton disgraced his name,his family and the Oval office on the world scene. I will never change on that. I believe in forgiveness and do forgive him, but the world will never forget and that is a mark upon our image.
Anyway, Obama now lives in a 4 million dollar home, look it up. He didnt’ get that from the grateful disenfranchised people of the south side of Chicago, I betcha.
And while I say half this and half that, it’s just a figure of speech. If I was gonna go the exact route, I’d give hard numbers. I have a AA in Electronics Technology and Applied Science, so I think I can handle that.
My sister and her husband ARE middle class. Except for a two year sprint as a health club area manager, he has been a high school teacher and she is a part time travel agent, very low key. They made some investments, like Bush urged the American people to do since day one or two of his Presidency. If anyone listened to him and invested in oil and lumber and steel, you would have prolly doubled or tripled your money by now, depending on which companies, etc.
Anyway, my sister raised two boys, sent them to college on partial scholarships and they both now hold great jobs. It’s not that tough, just takes determination and a willingness to make the effort and sacrifice of hanging out too much with friends and such, over time.
Patrick, I don’t know exactly what Palin was supposed to have done, so I will concede the point for now. Also, believe what you want about the neighborhood Obama fought for, it doesn’t make any difference, because people have been fighting for and with and at that neighborhood and others like it for decades, Obama was just one of a long line of do gooders.
I think it’s great that a man of color is aspiring to the White House, but I don’t think it’s great that people are hoping for him to save them. He will not. He is asking them to save themselves now, and I don’t hear anyone listening to that message at all.
Patrick said:
Patrick, I am afraid you are wrong about this cuz just about anybody can start a war and lock people up. Think about it.
The kind of power I am talking about is the kind where if you come into the room, people stop and listen and then take your advice. I don’t know if that ever really happens on the world stage, but it does in my mind…and admittedly I have a very active imagination. With this kind of power, there is no war, only willing compliance out of respect and honor.
Bright, you wrote:
He has, however, sold a lot of books. The advance for The Audacity of Hope alone was $1.9 million. Last year, Barack and Michelle’s combined income was $4.2 million, mostly from sales of his books.
But I do agree that Mr. Obama’s financial interactions with Tony Rezko(sp?) were foolish or poorly thought out - at the very least. How do Obama’s mistakes hold up against the alternatives - McCain’s involvement with Charles Keating, for example? We should each look at the facts, and judge for ourselves.
That’s great that your sister made investments, good for her and I’m glad it worked out. But many middle class people DON”T HAVE ANY MONEY TO INVEST, because they are busy spending it on their health care. Not because they weren’t bright enough to listen to Bush’s fabulous advice on oil and steel.
Bush is rich because he’s from one of the wealthiest families in the country, not from his business acumen. indeed, if he had to live as a result of his business acumen, he’d be in a rental apartment rather than the white house. and this vague obama-bashing, using some kind of vague chicago (he didn’t really help the people there” ) expertise, is unhelpful and vapid.
Griff: Regarding 2008 at the RNC being a repeat of 1968 at the DNC, Please clarify:
Are you wondering about the 1960’s-1970’s FBI “COINTELPRO” efforts to infiltrate groups on the left, to monitor, incite to violence and discredit them? (COINTELPRO is not a wild conspiracy theory, but historical fact)
Or are you assuming that, if there is violence in St. Paul during the RNC and related to the peace movement, it would be instigated only by the peace protest crowds themselves, and not agents provocateurs?
Or are you undecided on the question?
nick waterman, while i have never had the pleasure of your acquaintance,
i would be happy to be helpful if i knew what it is you thought would be helpful as long as it doesn’t involve me sitting down and shutting up like a good little girl and nodding my head and holding up signs in perfect agreement with everything i hear and see.
Hi Bright: I’m not asking you to “be a good girl and agree with everyone else,” I’m just saying that comments like “Obama has not done well in even a small Chicago neighborhood. And this is from the people there in the trenches who’s names I may not devulge,” is just ridiculous, for about 3 different reasons:
1) what does “done well” mean?
2) where are the “trenches”
3) why the cia-like secrecy of people whose names which “cannot be divulged,” as if some fearsome retribution awaited those with the temerity to say something as tepid as “obama has not done well.” What, are Obama’s goons going to bump them off?
4) most importantly, it (your comment) relies on feigning some kind of insider status to shut other people up, as if they did not have access to the truth, but you do, but you can’t say from where.
Holly,
You can chose to read my rhetoric as demeaning, so be it. I’m not known for soft-pedaling my written words. I chose words based on how they will emphasize a rhetorical argument or advance a story. Sometimes those words can be brutish, but it’s to solidify the point. If I held back certain words or phrases because I thought someone might be offended, I wouldn’t be able to write anything. There’s a difference between you being offended and me being offensive. It’s your judgment only. Nothing I can do about that.
To others here: As for Sarah Palin having five children: I’m failing to see the relevance to helping run the country. It’s an emotional factor in supporting her, yes, but it’s a very weak test for an office like Vice President of the US. Is there a childbirth-frequency / leadership-potential scale that I’ve never seen? A lot of seriously damaged women give birth to even more children. Republicans, historically, have demonized them.
David H., you make a good point in comment #60: there’s the strength of being seen as independent. That will be a plus for the ticket, but I still think the negatives (as they exist now and whatever may be uncovered in the next few months) outweigh that positive.
Bright, I haven’t the slightest idea how you conflate the Obama half-brother story and the allegations of Palin’s illegal firing of a state official based on a family grudge. Obama did what to his half-brother half a world away? If true - and Palin is already backpedaling from earlier assertions of non-involvement in the matter - then she seriously abused her power in service of a personal desire. Pretty much the definition of “corruption”. So much for the squeaky clean reformer. If true, she did this as an elected official using her authority and power as an elected official to fire someone who wouldn’t fire her former brother-in-law. So much for her respect for law and order, a supposed bedrock of conservative values.
Obama is under no obligation to ‘do something’ about any of his half-siblings. His father has several children with several women in different places. The children would be the responsibilty of his late father, not him.
On the other hand, Cindy McCain’s father had another family first and nearly abandoned them, but continued to have some contact with the child and provided some financial support. For McCain, who inherited a fortune, to cut off the meager aid her father clearly intended her sister to have is selfish. She doesn’t need to have a relationship with the half-sister, but she should have honored her father by sharing some of the many millions…or even one of the many houses…Hmmm.
nick, done well, means that he helped clear up the crime, or in some way made a difference in the life style that permeates the very concrete therein.
As I have said before on this forum, in several ways, shapes and forms, I grew up from birth in the neighborhood right next to the neighborhood where Obama was supposedly defending civil rights and organizing people. It is an area with one of the highest crime rates in the country and has been for generations.
I worked in City Hall, my sister worked in City Hall, and as an environmentalist with a high profile, I worked with the politicians, and as a person who used to be concerned with the plight of the black man, I do have some insider information about people such as Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition, Mohamed Ali, all of whom are also from my old neighborhood, or very nearby, and all have or had homes there for many years.
I live in a different type of neighborhood in the U of Chicago area, where Michelle Obama worked to create an outreach program. There are a lot of people who do social and legal work there, and it’s not all that.
The people I know are making some headway right now in their work and don’t wish to be pointed out. I am honoring their request. SO shoot me.
And btw, people who are ill and cannot affort health insurance may have been middle class at one time, but they are no longer, and therefore not
the people I refer to. I refer to people who have expendable income. If people would take that $4.00 per day that they buy pop and stuff with, by the end of one year, they would have almost $1500. They could buy some stock with that.
My sister is middle class, and they have dealt with illnesses, but not the long, long term expensive sort. My sister is almost retired and it took them a while to own three places…she is by all standards middle class.
Brendon, well, when I said what I said about Palin, I said ‘at first glance’, and then I said I didn’t know the whole story, and I still don’t, the investigation has barely even begun to see if an investigation is warranted, as far as I can tell from here. I can also say that messy divorce can mean a lot of things, like maybe someone was messing with someone and needed to get gone from public service and someone wasn’t wanting someone gone cuz of the blue brotherhood thing and maybe that didn’t sit too well with someone…we just don’t know yet.
But, Barrack’s claiming, take care of your brothers and sisters and family is all and no one can lift themselves up by their bootstraps if they don’t even have a bootstrap, and then in his own life, he has left his half brother in Kenya living in a shack on a dollar a day, not wanting to impose on his brother. For goodness sake. Can’t he bring him here and help him get
a pell grant or something??? At least walk the talk on that level, preacher man.
As for the five children, in my head I was thinking about how everyone says how great Fred Astaire was, when all the time Ginger Rogers was doing the same things Fred was only on high heels and backwards. As a performer, I am sure you can get that reference. As a man, you don’t know how much a woman gives toward giving birth, or maybe you do?
Bright said: “And btw, people who are ill and cannot affort health insurance may have been middle class at one time, but they are no longer, and therefore not
the people I refer to. I refer to people who have expendable income. ”
so all middle class people can afford health insurance? and middle class by definition includes “expendable” income? This will be news to much of the middle class. You know, the ones with only one house, or none.
and I’m just going to quit now, because the interminable nonsense about the half-brother has sent me over the edge. pell grants are for citizens. And why the indignant moral outrage over and over about a half brother whose circumstances you know NOTHING about (except what you have read), but a complete lack of moral outrage over the income discrepancies and poverty (not to even mention deaths, lack of medical care, etc) created right here in your country by george bush, where despite the ever more generous description of what constitutes “poverty”, more people fall into it every day?
i do realize i broke the rule and was sarcastic in the last post, but I must say, that if sarcasm is more offensive than this:
“I worked with the politicians, and as a person who used to be concerned with the plight of the black man, I do have some insider information about people such as Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition, Mohamed Ali, all of whom are also from my old neighborhood, or very nearby, and all have or had homes there for many years.
I live in a different type of neighborhood in the U of Chicago area, where Michelle Obama worked to create an outreach program. There are a lot of people who do social and legal work there, and it’s not all that.”
then something is wrong.
Yep, Obama does say these things about family, and I will concede the point that there may be a little personal hypocrisy in the situation with his half-brother. However, it’s not a function of his office as a Senator or his position as a presidential candidate. It’s a family matter, and I don’t know enough about the dynamics of his family to know why it persists, and I don’t think it’s indicative of his ability to lead since it is not a governance decision he’s making.
How much does he even know his half-brother? (They’re twenty years and one big ocean apart, are they not?) Is it more honorable for Obama to let his half-brother figure his own way in life or to just give him hand outs? From your arguments, I think you’d much rather see his half-brother do for himself, rather than have Barack do for him.
Palin’s actions are actually under investigation, by the Alaska legislature and by the Alaska Attorney General’s office. It is not the case that “the investigation has barely even begun to see if an investigation is warranted” as you stated. While it may be a family matter, they are actions alleged to have been carried out under her direction, using her power and authority as Alaska’s Governor - in other words, abuse of power and corruption of public office.
Your former brother-in-law being an ass to your sister - apart from his duties as a State Trooper - does not equate with an actionable cause for dismissal of his supervisor.
Again, regarding childbirth, somehow I’ve picked up that pain is involved. Does that mean anyone who suffers physical pain is made more ready to lead? The more pain, the better the leader? What about emotional pain? Does that count on the proficiency of leadership scale? What about a man who has five children? Is he more fit for executive office than a childless man, or a man with only one child?
As I said, it’s an emotional hook, to be sure, but that’s all it is. The whole “mom” angle will “play well in Peoria” perhaps, but let’s not confuse that with demonstrated ability.
It’s a grave disservice to women who have no children to consider that they are less fit for leadership based only on that criterion. This is not to say that being a mother doesn’t teach a woman many things about life, but as a marker for leadership potential at this level, it is meaningless and absurd at best, dubious and misleading at worst.
First of all, great leaders lead by example, not do as I say and not as I do.
Everyone knows that’ doesn’t work.
Obama has not yet answered the questions about his brother…the news refers to his book. If there was no way to get his brother some help, then so be it. I apologize, but I kind of think there is something to do for him. That’s my opinion, and I am entitled to it, nick and BE, without being belittled.
As for the five children scam I am trying to pull, come on. If you don’t think it’s harder to accomplish a full career and give birth to five kids, than it is to accomplish a career without giving birth…all other things being equal, which they never would be anyway, you have another think coming. I’m just giving my opinion, it doesn’t mean a hill of beans around here or anywhere else. Give it a rest, you two.
just to be clear, Bright, I entirely agree that you are entitled to your opinion. And that you should not be belittled for it. But belittling (for that is precisely what you are doing, trying to claim that Obama’s achievements are less than they are) Clinton or Obama or anyone else ought to be out of bounds for you, too. And it is one thing to state your opinion, and something entirely else to claim that you are in possession of facts somehow denied to the rest of us, but still unassailable.
I hardly think I was belittling you, Bright. I pointed out the difference in both the nature and meaning of the Barack half-brother story and the Palin former brother-in-law issue.
Obviously, I know it’s your opinion and I know you’re entitled to it. I never said you weren’t. I am, likewise, expressing my opinion and challenging the basis for yours. That’s debate.
As for the mother-of-five angle, I never even hinted that having five children and a career was the same as just having the career minus the children. My argument has been, and continues to be: there is nothing inherent in giving birth five times that qualifies someone for higher executive office. It’s an emotional hook for some, but it shouldn’t be considered as a reflection of her merit to help lead a country.
As for your assertions about the difficulties she must face as a mother of five and a Governor, certainly that would be