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	<title>Comments on: School District levy referenda: questions, issues for upcoming podcast</title>
	<atom:link href="http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/51/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/51/</link>
	<description>Blogging and podcasting the people, issues, and events of Northfield, MN</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 02:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Paul Zorn</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/51/comment-page-1/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Zorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Oct 2006 02:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/archives/51#comment-42</guid>
		<description>I intend (like Griff, I believe) to vote for the school levy.     I'm sympathetic to concerns about tax levels, such as those Barbara Gentling mentions.  Business property taxes do seem high.  

 But IMO the proper way to address these concerns is to review the big picture, at the state level,  of how taxes are raised and spent, the appropriate balance among types of taxes (income, property, sales, ...), which tax investments are wise and which are frills, what infrastructure we want for ourselves and our kids, etc.   Taking out one's frustrations on the schools --- and by extension the  kids --- makes little sense to me.    

Like Barbara, I'd strongly prefer smaller classes and I'm willing to help pay for them.  (Whether they'd significantly reduce the need for special ed is less clear to me, but that's worth trying to find out.)    

But let's be clear:  reducing class sizes to something like 18 is an expensive proposition.    So help me understand:  can lower taxes  really coexist with smaller classes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I intend (like Griff, I believe) to vote for the school levy.     I&#8217;m sympathetic to concerns about tax levels, such as those Barbara Gentling mentions.  Business property taxes do seem high.  </p>
<p> But IMO the proper way to address these concerns is to review the big picture, at the state level,  of how taxes are raised and spent, the appropriate balance among types of taxes (income, property, sales, &#8230;), which tax investments are wise and which are frills, what infrastructure we want for ourselves and our kids, etc.   Taking out one&#8217;s frustrations on the schools &#8212; and by extension the  kids &#8212; makes little sense to me.    </p>
<p>Like Barbara, I&#8217;d strongly prefer smaller classes and I&#8217;m willing to help pay for them.  (Whether they&#8217;d significantly reduce the need for special ed is less clear to me, but that&#8217;s worth trying to find out.)    </p>
<p>But let&#8217;s be clear:  reducing class sizes to something like 18 is an expensive proposition.    So help me understand:  can lower taxes  really coexist with smaller classes?</p>
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		<title>By: Barbara Gentling</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/51/comment-page-1/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbara Gentling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/archives/51#comment-41</guid>
		<description>To respond to Griff's question about reduced class size.  There's much research on the effects of small classes.  A few years ago MN. funded these initiatives in grades K-2 and
I believe the goal was 18 students per class.  My point is that small class size (18-20 max.) allows teachers to know their students strengths and weaknesses and work with them appropriately.  Special education instruction is basically using alternative (sometimes even the
same teaching methods) at a different pace or with modified materials.  The last few years I worked in the school the trend was for special education teachers to go INTO regular education classrooms to
support classroom instruction for
children experiencing difficulty learning with traditional methods.  This is a pendulum issue...some years it swings far one way (i.e. pull the children out of regular classrooms...a few years later put them all back in with supports).  
My point is that 18-20 students
in a classroom allows a "good" teacher to work with all children
appropriately.  Some children may
need numerous additional supports but they will receive a much more "normal" educational experience 
in a regular education classroom.
(I apologize for all this special 
education language).  I haven't stayed up with educational journals but I'm certain this an issue that has been heavily studied.

One of the significant problems I saw in educational settings was "building the bureaucracy"...every time the state or federal government gave an "unfunded mandate" people were hired to deal with it.  Burnsville 
and Edina schools had so many people in the administrative office a staff person didn't know where to go.  And
salaries for these "administrators"
were in the 80's, 90's, over 100,000 dollars.  Not bad if the district had 3-4 administrators...but 23?  29?
And what do all these people do?  Here we go back to "rent seeking"which I found very helpful.  It explains much of my frustration with lawyers, developers, bankers, and of course politicians.  Ah, another day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To respond to Griff&#8217;s question about reduced class size.  There&#8217;s much research on the effects of small classes.  A few years ago MN. funded these initiatives in grades K-2 and<br />
I believe the goal was 18 students per class.  My point is that small class size (18-20 max.) allows teachers to know their students strengths and weaknesses and work with them appropriately.  Special education instruction is basically using alternative (sometimes even the<br />
same teaching methods) at a different pace or with modified materials.  The last few years I worked in the school the trend was for special education teachers to go INTO regular education classrooms to<br />
support classroom instruction for<br />
children experiencing difficulty learning with traditional methods.  This is a pendulum issue&#8230;some years it swings far one way (i.e. pull the children out of regular classrooms&#8230;a few years later put them all back in with supports).<br />
My point is that 18-20 students<br />
in a classroom allows a &#8220;good&#8221; teacher to work with all children<br />
appropriately.  Some children may<br />
need numerous additional supports but they will receive a much more &#8220;normal&#8221; educational experience<br />
in a regular education classroom.<br />
(I apologize for all this special<br />
education language).  I haven&#8217;t stayed up with educational journals but I&#8217;m certain this an issue that has been heavily studied.</p>
<p>One of the significant problems I saw in educational settings was &#8220;building the bureaucracy&#8221;&#8230;every time the state or federal government gave an &#8220;unfunded mandate&#8221; people were hired to deal with it.  Burnsville<br />
and Edina schools had so many people in the administrative office a staff person didn&#8217;t know where to go.  And<br />
salaries for these &#8220;administrators&#8221;<br />
were in the 80&#8217;s, 90&#8217;s, over 100,000 dollars.  Not bad if the district had 3-4 administrators&#8230;but 23?  29?<br />
And what do all these people do?  Here we go back to &#8220;rent seeking&#8221;which I found very helpful.  It explains much of my frustration with lawyers, developers, bankers, and of course politicians.  Ah, another day.</p>
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		<title>By: Griff Wigley</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/51/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>Griff Wigley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/archives/51#comment-36</guid>
		<description>Hi Barbara, good to have your comments.

Funny you should mention class size. I'm typing this at a coffeehouse on Monday morning and friend who I'd not seen for a while came in. When I asked him what his wife was up to, he said "Homeschooling our son. We pulled him out of Bridgewater Elementary because class size was over 30."

I'm not sure to what extent reducing class size would reduce the need for Special Ed services, though.  Do you have examples or can you point to research where this has been done successfully?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Barbara, good to have your comments.</p>
<p>Funny you should mention class size. I&#8217;m typing this at a coffeehouse on Monday morning and friend who I&#8217;d not seen for a while came in. When I asked him what his wife was up to, he said &#8220;Homeschooling our son. We pulled him out of Bridgewater Elementary because class size was over 30.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure to what extent reducing class size would reduce the need for Special Ed services, though.  Do you have examples or can you point to research where this has been done successfully?</p>
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		<title>By: Barbara Gentling</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/51/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbara Gentling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 02:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/archives/51#comment-34</guid>
		<description>I worked as an educational psychologist for 11 years in major metropolitan districts &#038; Faribault.

I NEVER thought I would vote against any funding for schoolsâ€¦but I am now. My reasons are similar to Larry DeBoerâ€™s and Griffâ€™s concerns.

I began a service busines (Care Tenders) almost 8 years ago to address transportation and home support needs. I built a building as there was no building in Northfield that accommodated the needs the business had. I was told by Ray Cox, the builder, that taxes would be approximately $4,000 per year; similar to his. SURPRISE!

Every year they have increased and this year are over $11,000. With the figures given out in the â€˜â€Levy Guideâ€ they will increase $810. A shuttle ride to MSP is approximately $43â€¦or 287 shuttle rides just to pay property taxes. I donâ€™t think so. I have spoken with city council members, the assessor, and our elected representatives. They all sayâ€¦â€Yes, commercial property taxes are terrible but there is no â€˜public willâ€™ to do anything about themâ€. But I can do something â€¦vote no. I look at the 2 palatial new schools.

I agree with Kathy Galotti; my daughters had problems with a particular teacher and nothing has ever been done about i.

Consultants pitch a 9 million dollar library. Iâ€™m certain we could build a new pool for less than 2.4 million. I agree with Larry, â€œwe want everything in Northfieldâ€.

I told Dr. Kyte years ago that after my experience in Burnsville &#038; Edina schools, the only levy I will support is greatly reduced class size. If classes are reduced we wonâ€™t need all these â€œspecial servicesâ€. 70.2% of Northfieldâ€™s budget is spent on classroom instructionâ€¦do we think that is good?? We ought to spend 90% or more. 

There is a limit to the fare I can charge and stay in business. It is time for the city council, the school board, the county commissioners to recognize that they canâ€™t always come to the pubic for more. Sometimes, we don;t have it.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I worked as an educational psychologist for 11 years in major metropolitan districts &#038; Faribault.</p>
<p>I NEVER thought I would vote against any funding for schoolsâ€¦but I am now. My reasons are similar to Larry DeBoerâ€™s and Griffâ€™s concerns.</p>
<p>I began a service busines (Care Tenders) almost 8 years ago to address transportation and home support needs. I built a building as there was no building in Northfield that accommodated the needs the business had. I was told by Ray Cox, the builder, that taxes would be approximately $4,000 per year; similar to his. SURPRISE!</p>
<p>Every year they have increased and this year are over $11,000. With the figures given out in the â€˜â€Levy Guideâ€ they will increase $810. A shuttle ride to MSP is approximately $43â€¦or 287 shuttle rides just to pay property taxes. I donâ€™t think so. I have spoken with city council members, the assessor, and our elected representatives. They all sayâ€¦â€Yes, commercial property taxes are terrible but there is no â€˜public willâ€™ to do anything about themâ€. But I can do something â€¦vote no. I look at the 2 palatial new schools.</p>
<p>I agree with Kathy Galotti; my daughters had problems with a particular teacher and nothing has ever been done about i.</p>
<p>Consultants pitch a 9 million dollar library. Iâ€™m certain we could build a new pool for less than 2.4 million. I agree with Larry, â€œwe want everything in Northfieldâ€.</p>
<p>I told Dr. Kyte years ago that after my experience in Burnsville &#038; Edina schools, the only levy I will support is greatly reduced class size. If classes are reduced we wonâ€™t need all these â€œspecial servicesâ€. 70.2% of Northfieldâ€™s budget is spent on classroom instructionâ€¦do we think that is good?? We ought to spend 90% or more. </p>
<p>There is a limit to the fare I can charge and stay in business. It is time for the city council, the school board, the county commissioners to recognize that they canâ€™t always come to the pubic for more. Sometimes, we don;t have it.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry DeBoer</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/51/comment-page-1/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry DeBoer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/archives/51#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Griff,
The point that I am trying to make is there is a limited amount of money for citizens to spend.  Each of the special interest groups have a fund raising effort.  When our funds are consumed by taxes little is left over for the various other well meaning "wants" of our community. 
Larry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Griff,<br />
The point that I am trying to make is there is a limited amount of money for citizens to spend.  Each of the special interest groups have a fund raising effort.  When our funds are consumed by taxes little is left over for the various other well meaning &#8220;wants&#8221; of our community.<br />
Larry</p>
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		<title>By: Griff Wigley</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/51/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Griff Wigley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Sep 2006 03:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/archives/51#comment-28</guid>
		<description>Hi Larry, thanks for weighing in... and for going public with your position against the referenda. It's courageous in this town.

Your wish-list is a little misleading, though, since the YMCA and new theater won't likely involve public money. And to my knowledge, there's no local tax assessment of citizens for anything related to the bike trail or Cannon River.

But I think you can make your point without those and just use the local property tax increase for the city, the swimming pool, and now the school referenda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Larry, thanks for weighing in&#8230; and for going public with your position against the referenda. It&#8217;s courageous in this town.</p>
<p>Your wish-list is a little misleading, though, since the YMCA and new theater won&#8217;t likely involve public money. And to my knowledge, there&#8217;s no local tax assessment of citizens for anything related to the bike trail or Cannon River.</p>
<p>But I think you can make your point without those and just use the local property tax increase for the city, the swimming pool, and now the school referenda.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry DeBoer</title>
		<link>http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/post/51/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry DeBoer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/archives/51#comment-27</guid>
		<description>It is rare to find basic US citizens who are against good education, good schools and continuing enhancement of programs.  It is even rarer to find Northfielders who are negative on those subjects.  

But, we want everything in Northfield.  We want a larger library, we want a new swimming pool, we want a new YMCA, we want improved streets, we want clean water, we want to preserve the Cannon River, we want a new theater, we want bike trails and hopefully we want new businesses to bring in more jobs.  

The want list is much greater than the taxation base.  The City Council just approved a budget that will increase the property tax levy by 12.5% over the 2006 amount.  

Inflation is not increasing by that amount.  Most incomes are not increasing by that amount, nor the amount the school district is proposing.  Some things have to be put in proper priority over a much longer time frame.  I cannot support the school levy, nor the city budget increase, until I can see evidence that management has seriously studied more options.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is rare to find basic US citizens who are against good education, good schools and continuing enhancement of programs.  It is even rarer to find Northfielders who are negative on those subjects.  </p>
<p>But, we want everything in Northfield.  We want a larger library, we want a new swimming pool, we want a new YMCA, we want improved streets, we want clean water, we want to preserve the Cannon River, we want a new theater, we want bike trails and hopefully we want new businesses to bring in more jobs.  </p>
<p>The want list is much greater than the taxation base.  The City Council just approved a budget that will increase the property tax levy by 12.5% over the 2006 amount.  </p>
<p>Inflation is not increasing by that amount.  Most incomes are not increasing by that amount, nor the amount the school district is proposing.  Some things have to be put in proper priority over a much longer time frame.  I cannot support the school levy, nor the city budget increase, until I can see evidence that management has seriously studied more options.</p>
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