I was downtown St. Paul a couple of weeks ago and noticed the sidewalk dining structures on E. 5th St. between Wabasha and St. Peter. The width of the lane between the curb and the dining structures is less than 4 feet. I don’t know what code is.
In May, 2006, the NDDC hosted a downtown forum on this issue of sidewalk dining. Ross Currier blogged about it and wrote:
Panel and audience members offered some ideas, including defining a 42 inch clear zone for the sidewalk in the ordinance, specifying closing times for outside seating, temporary use of parking spaces for seating during special events, and creating a green buffer of potted plants around the outside seating.
Downtown business owner and [then] EDA member Tracy Davis seemed to sum up the sense of the group when she said, “It doesn’t sound like there are any concerns that can’t be addressed, shouldn’t we just give it a try?”
On May 16, 2006, Ross blogged about ArtsPlan ’06 consultant Tom Clough’s support for the idea and wrote: “David Hvistendahl and Maren Swanson are circulating draft ordinance language right now.” (I also posted some of my photos of sidewalk dining structures in Italy to the NDDC blog.)
Robbie and I ate dinner last night on the sidewalk tables (left photo) in front of the James Gang HideAway but of course, we couldn’t have a beer or a glass of wine with our meal. Nor could the patrons down the street at Hogan Brothers. Nor the patrons up the street at the Rueb.
Meanwhile, the Nlfd News reports quotes Rueb owner Joe Grundhoefer as saying, “We’re in the works of having a smoking patio built out back but we don’t know if it will be ready by fall.” I’d much rather see a sidewalk dining structure that smokers and non-smokers could share. There appears to be plenty of room for it on either the Division or 5th St. side of the building (photos below).
So here we are, a year later, summer about to begin, and I don’t think anything has happened to move the ball along. With two and maybe three new restaurants opening this summer on Division (two serving liquor) it would seem that the time is right to have the ordinance changed.
What’s holding things up?
As I mentioned in today’s recording of the Locally Grown podcast (to be broadcast on KYMN radio for the first time, tomorrow at 5:30p, 1080AM!), I asked City Attorney Maren Swanson for an update on the status of the “sidewalk dining” ordinances that were drafted in May 2005. She said that the proposed ordinance changes, which involve two zoning changes to the downtown district to allow for sidewalk sales, and one change to the liquor licensing law to expand the licensed premises to include adjacent outdoor/sidewalk areas, have been in the hands of City staff since last summer. When I asked Maren what the next steps should be, she suggested that the onus was on City staff and/or City Council to bring the issue forward again, and she said that the most appropriate and effective means might be to have the issue discussed at a City Council work session.
So there you have it. Interested parties should contact their ward and at-large City Council representatives and lobby them to get this on the agenda before too much of the summer goes by.
Thanks for the follow-up, Tracy. Let’s see if we can get Ross and the NDDC to bring this up with Ward 1 downtown Councilor Jim Pokorney.
I have another followup. I spoke this morning with Brian O’Connell and asked about the status of the ordinance. His take on it was that there were a lot of issues regarding the administration of these ordinances, that their implications for use of public right-of-way were not limited to Division Street/ downtown, and at the time the ordinances were drafted the City and the Public Works dept in particular did not have adequate staff to support the ordinances if enacted.
After being very patient with my sputtering and frustration about how, if other communities have found a way to do this, obviously we could too, Brian said he thinks that really it’s just been an issue that hasn’t been active because there hasn’t been the immediate need, political will, and/or lobbying to make it happen.
When I asked specifically about a circumstance similar to Griff’s, e.g. having a sandwich outside the Hideaway and wanting wine to go with it, Brian said that he thought (but wasn’t positive) that the liquor ordinance, extending the licensed premises, could possibly be done separately from the others. That would allow Griff to have wine with dinner, which is really what this is all about.
Okay Griff, I’ll mention it to Jim (Ward 1) and Scott (Ward 2) tonight at dinner. Maybe I’ll try to get them to step outside the Grand with their drinks in hand and discuss ordinances on the sidewalk.
😉
Ross
[…] the way … By Bruce Morlan When Locally Grown Northfield correspondent Griff Wigley posted a recent blog asking why Northfield could not get their act together to permit sidewalk liquor sales I thought to myself, wither goest Dundas on this issue? I raised the question at the next planning […]
Good news Griff, Dundas already has such an ordinance, and the story is sort of entertaining…
http://soleil.nfldinet.com/web/brucem/simcash/icotpeople/Bloggers/wordpress/?p=271
Bruce:
“may apply for a temporary expansion of the licensed premises permit to allow sale and possession of alcoholic beverages on public sidewalks directly adjacent and contiguous to the permanently licensed premises.”
Does “temporary” cover the, let’s say, 5 months of outside ordinance opportunity in Minnesota?
Thanks much,
Ross
…oh, and does the application process take 3 of the 5 months of opportunity?
I’d like to see the entire text of the Dundas ordinance, since there are misc. issues like pedestrian/wheelchair access, physical boundary markers, fines, use of tables and chairs by non-patrons, ability to use a portion of the street, etc.
I talked to Councilor Jim Pokorney about this issue yesterday and he thought that if the NDDC would draft the ordinance, he’d carry it to the Council for consideration/staff input.
Here’s the text of the ordinances from St. Paul and Minneapolis related to sidewalk dining with liquor:
St. Paul ordinance:
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Minneapolis ordinance:
The City codes are available at the City hall. They do address the stuff Griff asked about. As I said, they were originally drafted for Northfield, Dundas just edited them to apply to Dundas’s situation.
Ross, I don’t know if application takes long to process, so I can’t say if a business actually has to plan a long time in advance to use this. We only have one or two businesses right now that would appear to have any interest anyway.
Griff:
Jim Pokorney has asked the NDDC to propose language for an Ordinance. The E R Team has drafted some language and the Board will review it this afternoon. The draft has also been forwarded to the three restauranteurs that expressed interest at last year’s Forum.
Your links to Minneapolis and St. Paul were interesting and provided some grist for our mill. Thanks for reviving this topic.
Ross
Regarding the ER Team draft:
…how about some kind of an ‘overlay’ for the ‘Olde Town’ area which would define particular permitted activities such as outdoor dining/drinking…this ‘overlay’ could have specific language such as ‘loud, boisterous or disturbing noise levels’, and ‘hours’, and ‘permission from private residences’, and deal specifically with the riverwalk, its approaches, alleys, max area of permitted space, etc.
Question: where are the enforcement standards (such as reasonable use and enjoyment) and is this a ‘drive-by’ policing concept?; ‘response to complaint’ process?, or ‘foot/bike patrol oversight/policing’ concept?… (and where is the law enforcement budget)?
Another point: Imagine a complaint…get it on Council Agenda…publish notice of public hearing… actual hearing…Council action…3 days notice…complaint resolved (how long could this take??)
Observation: Is the proposed language ‘There shall be outside dining in Northfield’ a serious statement indicating the NDDC’s attitude towards dialogue? Surely, the NDDC, besides presenting the ER Teams’s input, is open to considering all sides of this issue?
Long term, it might be interesting to tackle the complications/benefits of ‘permitting’ the carrying and consuming in non-glass containers, wine/beer out onto the Arts Town sidewalk/public space immediately contiguous to a non-licensed’ art gallery…?
See ya on the sidewalk for dinner downtown…
Dean Kjerland
Great to hear, Ross. I’ll be thrilled to be the first to buy you a drink and have it delivered on a public sidewalk.
Dean, I think Jim Pokorney’s philosophy on this, and it’s one I share, is that let’s take our best whack at an ordinance revamp with the expectation that it’ll need ongoing fine-tuning for a while based on experiences/unexpected consequences until we get it right.
[…] by Griff Wigley and encouraged by Jim Pokorney, the NDDC has drafted language for an Outside Dining Ordinance. […]
[…] the food court back to the street, we should consider first our own cultural context, and without political will, the tendency of traditional street use permitting and related, safety-based regulatory regimes to […]