City Hall Renovation Tops a Million Dollars

MillionDollarMakeOver-1.jpgLate last week I heard that with the latest “add”, the cost of renovating the City Hall is now over a million dollars. Already at $800,000, there’s now a quarter million dollar addition from Johnson Controls.

This has been one of the strangest on-going stories, at least to me, in a year full of strange stories.

When Al Roder first arrived in town, he floated the idea of swapping the library for the city hall. Not only did I think that cutting up the grand second floor space into little offices would be an aesthetic crime, I couldn’t really visualize the library space working for city hall. Al’s next idea was putting the city hall in the old College City Beverage building. Not only did I question the location for our city hall, it seemed to me that a town short of industrial space shouldn’t be converting one of its finest sites into a public use.

Fortunately, after probably too much time and too many resources, both of those ideas were dropped. In its place was proposed the substantial renovation of the city hall with the help of foundation repair Fort Worth. When Al was advocating for the library and then the CCB sites, he suggested that renovating the existing building would be cost prohibitive; a figure of two million dollars was bandied about in the informal discussions. As that concept rose to the top of the heap, the cost miraculously dropped to five or six hundred thousand. Now it’s back over a million.

Accordiing to Mr. Roder, the city hall project was all about increasing customer service.

I don’t know of a single citizen who thinks that spending a million dollars on the city hall is a good use of taxpayer money. Will a few more “adds” drive the price back to $2 million? Are the alleged gains in customer service worth $1 million or $2 million? Is it a better investment than a hockey rink, a performing arts center, or a new business park? With Al now in Norfolk, who is the champion for this project, pushing it steadily forward, and keeping it on the top of our list of priorities?

Somebody suggested that the thirty-day clock for a reverse referendum on this project is already ticking.

239 thoughts on “City Hall Renovation Tops a Million Dollars”

  1. David L: I agree with you about Victor’s charging–I would hope the county attorney could come up with better use of his time. I know what Victor is accused of doing and I understand the legal issues involved, so I do not think anyone would be harmed if the charges were dropped.

    However, I disagree with you on the Goodhue County issue–it is nowhere near the same–I do not know who was acccused of what and what the affect of such crimes were–I know nothing. I would like to either know they have investigated and found no substance or they have evidence against?….Who? before I make any judgment on their dropping charges.

  2. Jane: Regarding Mr. Summa, it just seems like common sense should dictate, even if what he did was a crime. Some consequence is appropriate, but a criminal record for a 76 year old man?

    Regarding the Goodhue County matter, Northfield already hired an investigator and paid him about 83 gazillion dollars. Why isn’t that good enough?

  3. David –

    I never called for the former City Administrator to suspend his work while he was being investigated. After learning, from documents distributed at a Special Council Meeting, that the investigation might include his handling of City Contracts, I merely suggested to the City Council that perhaps they should step up their oversight in this particular area.

    Nor did I ever call for the City Council to suspend their work. After hearing that the investigation’s scope would be larger than what was said between the former City Administrator and current Mayor in that closed room for 18 months, that it could possibly include other City Staff, other Elected Officials, and even Private Citizens, I wondered out loud about an Elected Official who might be part of at least the investigation, and maybe more, voting to give money to the former City Administrator. It would have seemed more appropriate, and prudent, at least to me, to wait until the findings of the Goodhue County Investigator had been released.

    But David, as I have tried to make clear to you several times before, I don’t think it’s a good use of your and my time to talk with you about this subject, in this forum, through the e-mail, or over the phone, anymore. As I’ve said before, let’s see what the team in Goodhue County has to say. I’m confident that they’ll be finished soon.

    Thanks much,


  4. Ross: If you used the same standard on Victor that you are using on the investigation in Goodhue County, then Mr. Summa should withdraw his candidacy, and step down from his current appointed positions while he is “under investigation”. That doesn’t make much sense to me, even though Victor and I have very different political persuasions.

    With Goodhue County, we don’t have any idea what the allegations are, nor who is implicated. So, why are we waiting for that investigation before acting? Given that all of the major players are gone, or soon will be gone, what’s to be gained? What does it matter for Northfield governance?

    And, your persistent rumor-mongering, and refusal to reveal the sources of your rumors are just making matters worse. I’m not sure what you are trying to achieve by your rumors of “hush money”, and City Council involvement, contract improprieties, etc.

  5. You know, I cannot tell you how affecting the immediate comments, as well as the depths of this entire controversy is to me…
    Yesterday morning, after the Chamber forum, Kathy Felbrugge was commenting how dapper Victor looked in a nice sport jacket and his grey wool British cap, and she wanted to take his picture…

    David, you and I had been chatting about sex ed in schools, and families eating dinner together, and you came over and put your arm around Victor’s shoulders for Kathy’s picture… And we all were laughing together about what a great picture it would be on the Chamber’s full page in the newspaper, maybe bearing the Caption, “we believe in partnering”…

    I feel that good moment to be lost in some other reality, when I read the comments on the NFNews site this morning, and see the constant reiteration of old accusations here on LG.

    And here’s the really big jump … these alternate realities validate to me why I am no longer a “religious” person, at least in a formal way… Hypocrisy is hateful to me, and behavior to others in our community can be critical on issues, but not solely on personal confrontation.

    Obviously “anne”on the News site is Anne Bretts, and I would assume that “curious” on the news site is Jon Denison from the way happenings at the council meeting are quoted. The viciousness of personal comment, as opposed to informed comments on the substance is appalling; and especially from persons who haven’t the courage of their convictions to use their name.

    Now it will just come back to me… oh, you weren’t so concerned about Mr. Roder, and then that could go on spinning around and around for another 700 comments.

    Just rambling now, but I think this town is F’d if it can’t get a grip on what has actually happened in the past, what is actually happening now, and what it wants to see happen in the future…. And no number of XL T-shirts saying “Plays well with others” will fix it. We will need people who will commit to dealing with the facts, ALL the facts.

  6. The use and abuse of the law by City Hall is very troubling and must nowadays be seen in the context of the change in political paradigm from representing the electorate to managing it (google ‘Tony Benn’ and open your ears & eyes).

    Victor, and a few citizens like him (including me), are deemed by City Hall to be unmanageable and therefore prone to, and deserving of, victimization and punishment by City Hall.

    For Victor, his chastisement is timely in that it is an attempt by City Hall and its camp followers (eg Anne & curious on the NNEWS blog) to jeopardizes his chances in the upcoming election.

    For me, this blatant and unsubtle attack on Victor will have the direct opposite effect. Victor has my vote and hopefully all those (many?) citizens who can see through this gauche, politically-motivated charade.

  7. I’ve never made any attempt to hide who I am, in comments here or elsewhere. I have no idea who the other commenters are on the Northfield News site. My comments about Victor are not personal, since we have never had a personal conversation, but reflect my opinion of his public behavior only. As I said on the News site, I find his removal of the papers from city hall to be wrong and a serious breach of his trust as a public official. I based my view on the facts of the situation.
    I will vote but am not involved in local elections this year. I am not trying to sway anyone’s vote, as I believe that people are smart enough to make their own choices.
    Hope this clears things up.

  8. Anne -You say you base your view on the “facts of the situation”. What are the facts? Does anyone except Victor & Deb Little actually know what took place and who said what to whom and why…?
    Most of us at one time or another jump to conclusions BEFORE we truly have any facts.

    I have known Victor Summa for a long time. He is extremely respectful of city procedures and is a law abiding person. How is it possible with several people involved in this situation that only one, Victor, is singled out as guilty? I am sure that the others involved want to protect themselves against the claim of wrongdoing. Victor has not tried to protect himself. He has tried to protect the others. Doesn’t this tell people something about his character? Doesn’t this speak as to how he would be on the council with respect to his fellow council members and the citizens of Northfield? Victor is not a self-serving person. This complaint by persons as yet unknown is obviously politically motivated.

  9. Anne: I have to disagree that what happened with Victor is a serious breach of the law. It might be a breach, but, it certainly isn’t serious. (The judge’s refusal to sign indicates that it probably lacks probable cause to believe an offense was committed). I hope that the County Attorney uses some common sense (and not sophisicated intelligence) and decides not to prosecute.

    Victor: I would suggest that the “witchhunt” against you carries much of the same flavor as the “witchhunt” against Roder and Lansing. The City has been running for 18 months without knowing what the allegations are. Does it really matter anymore? If the problems were serious wouldn’t someone have told us by now?

  10. I have been keeping away from this site for awhile, as it only reminds me of the issues that Kiffi mentions.
    However, I have to chime in here just a tad, with yes, my name attached. Victor’s actions HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS APPOINTED POSITIONS. He did NOT use any authority from the EDA or the Charter to bring papers or remove papers that were null & void anyway. Let it go….There should be no affiliation between his powers (?) nor should he be asked as a volunteer to step down. This site has clearly had numerous discussions about the many roles we all may play in or out of Northfield. Be it a mom, a friend, a collegue, etc., on plan commision and so on., Victors role (or hat he was wearing at the time) was a citizen trying to address a citizen issue. Again, the comments, to have him step down appear vindictive, personal, wrong and are not related, in my humble opinion. Let it go….

  11. Charlene: The County Attorney has drafted a complaint stating that Victor committed a crime. I hope that he uses some sense and doesn’t charge out the crime.

    I would also hope that those who want to cut Victor so much slack now that he is in trouble would also cut Roder and Lansing the same kind of slack on the Goodhue County matter.

  12. David,

    I do not see the relationship here that you are trying to make. One, I NEVER had an issue with the Mayor and NEVER SAW MR. LANSING DO OR SAY ANYTHING UNETHICAL. Period!!! As for Goodhue & Roder, I never spoke about it nor would I care to get involved in that nightmare, period. The Mayor and Victor are not threatning to “sue” the City.
    As for Summa, again…. I look at the bottom line. He does not have power (like Roder had) nor any authority and is a UNPAID volunteer, and his issue with the paperwork is null and void. He did not steal documents of value nor did he take anything from City Hall that he did not bring into City Hall. There is no logical relationship between any of these issues, so again, I have no idea why you would even stir up this stuff. Makes no logical sense to me…. just cannot see any light of comparason here on either of these two individuals.

  13. David: I don’t see how these relate.

    We know that Victor was acting in the interest of the public, trying to stop City Hall from spending $880,000 during a difficult economy, and that he purportedly stole public documents from the failed petition.

    Lansing and Roder are public officials with an immense responsibility to fulfill the public’s trust. We don’t know what either will be charged with, if anything, but because of their status as public authorities, their culpability is that much greater.

    I don’t want anyone committing crimes, but especially not public officials. And I suspect that if any charges come against Lansing or Roder, they will be more severe than stealing public documents.

    I’ll wait and see what Goodhue concludes before deciding whether to cut Lansing or Roder slack.

  14. Jerold, I don’t understand how motive plays a role in this. Who decided that opposing the renovations was in the public interest? Who decided that those who support the renovations, including the council, are not acting in the public interest? At what point does an individual get to determine the value of a council action? If a council member had tried to remove the documents, I think the discussion would be quite different.
    This isn’t a felony, and might not be a misdemeanor, but in my opinion, it still is a breach of the public trust. Mr. Summa isn’t an innocent novice making an honest mistake, but an experienced public official who prides himself in his knowledge of government protocol. The clerk told him not to take the documents. And while he says he was taking them to protect others, that action also could be defined as covering up for their wrongdoing. The court will decide.
    I wonder whether Mr. Summa would have been as forgiving if the opponents of the mayor had submitted a faulty recall petition and then tried to remove parts of it.
    As usual, the simple incident is being made into high drama. Mr. Summa is not the victim of a witch hunt and he’s not facing prison.
    He will get a slap on the wrist at best. He failed to gather the support he needed and the petition failed. The voters will determine for themselves whether his actions were in their interest.
    In short, he was speeding and might end up with a ticket. If he doesn’t he should consider himself lucky. If he does, he should pay the fine. In either case, he should slow down and follow the rules of the road.

  15. Charlene and Jerold: Victor was not acting on behalf of the body politic; he was acting in his own self-interest. The body politic had already decided this issue.

    Even though the two cases aren’t related, we need to decide how we are going to treat these useless lawsuits. I just don’t see how the results in either case is going to change how we govern the City.

    Frankly, I can’t imagine anything the Goodhue County Attorney is going to tell us is going to change anything helpful. The prosecution of Victor is going to get us nowhere. It is time for the City to take some control over these lawsuits. They are just a waste of time.

  16. David: Either way, it still goes back to seeing the actual charges brought and the evidence presented. Without knowing the results of Goodhue, I can’t say that we should ignore the alleged crimes and just move on. (I won’t necessarily trust the Goodhue results. I have read many police reports that contradict themselves. Investigators are imperfect beings.) However, simply because public officials are involved, I am less interested in cutting them slack.

    I take the same position if I am elected. I am under a greater responsibility to do the right thing as a public official than as a random joe.

  17. Y’all can gab on about this forever… appreciate the support … expect the usual criticisms.

    But as far as the “public interest” goes … there were more signatures collected than needed for the referendum (gross #) so considering that it was done in approximately two weeks, and over Labor day, I think it VERY safe to say the public interest was being served.

    As far as “at what point does an individual get to determine the value of a council action” … one individual didn’t, but way over 400 did …

    And as a matter of FACT, having watched all the council candidate forums, those city hall renovations are not coming up anywhere near the top of the priorities of any candidate, so whoever thinks it IS a good idea, better get ready to make YOUR case in January…

  18. After attending the candidate forum at “The Cow” last night, it is clear to me that Summa is the best, most qualified person for the “at large” two-year seat.

    Victor’s problem, if he has one, is that he knows too much and is feared in some sectors for that reason. I hope voters can get beyond rumor and innuendo his detractors have been putting out and recognize how valuable he would be as a voting member of the Council.

  19. Kiffi: I’m with Victor on this charge. The only charge that makes any sense to me is for Victor to be charged under Minn. Stat. 609C3.14 – Causing a Sensory Unpleasantness in the Gluteus Maximus. I think the maximum penalty is 90 days loss of loquaciousness. Oh, and an apology to Deb Little for victim restitution.

  20. Thanks, David.
    Unfortunately there are many here, and on the NFNews site who have not just a difference of opinion on the issue, but an ongoing vindictiveness personally … lots of crocodile tears, and attacks against anyone who disagrees with their POV. (example: attacking ONLY the ‘moniker’ who disagrees, for being anonymous, instead of speaking against ALL anonymity) I think there’s an old African proverb about ‘crocodile tears’ falling only on the scorched earth they have created, but I haven’t found it yet; I’ll keep looking, it’s relevant.

    It is virtually unbelievable to me, that some of the things that have been said in this election period, can be said and not challenged. Has the angst with our national politics, our global view, poisoned every aspect of our political scene? And has our fear of reprisal silenced us too often?

    One of the best examples of working together has been the four 2 YR at-large candidates, at their forum at the Cow as well as other fora (thank you Jerold F.); they have consistently been able to disagree with each other without making noxious statements to, or about, each other… and not having a primary for those four has put them in a position where they could be much more contentious with each other.

  21. Anne: I didn’t overlook your response to me in your #214, but I didn’t want to answer it without time to ponder.

    Motive plays a significant role in most crimes. Killing another human for profit or self-defense is treated differently. Motive is also important at sentencing.

    Any time a citizen organizes a petition, I think it’s presumed to be a matter of public interest. Because the petition was to take the renovation matter to the public for a vote has me certain that it’s a matter of public interest.

    We agree that Victor and all drivers should obey the rules of the road. What should we do when that doesn’t happen? Should we treat the street racers the same as the commuter who is speeding to get to work on time? Should we treat both the same as the parent speeding to the hospital with a sick child?

    I don’t know all the facts in Victor’s controversy. From what I’ve read here and in the Northfield News, Victor is not a threat to the public, nor is he likely to repeat what he allegedly did. If you carry through with the speeding analogy, some jurisdictions have traffic school as a diversion for people who break traffic laws. Again, acknowledging that I am unaware of what actually happened, I think that anyone acting for the public’s benefit who makes a mistake should be given a similar opportunity.

    Last I saw, Victor will be charged with a gross misdemeanor or a felony. Felonies have different definitions in different states, but they are generally the crimes where those found guilty are sent to state prison.

    Back to David’s point, equating Victor’s alleged crime with Lansing and Roder, I am not prepared to equate them at any level. David might be right, that any crimes alleged by Goodhue should be forgiven and Northfield should move forward. But I can’t agree with David until I see what Goodhue concludes. For me, if Lansing and Roder were street racing or driving their sick kid to the hospital will make all the difference.

  22. Jerold: Not to beat a dead horse, but didn’t we pay Mr. Everett, a former FBI investigator $35,000.00 to investigate this whole sordid affair, and didn’t he come up with nothing but that Lansing was advocating for his own site -which we already knew? Wasn’t Roder cleared completely?

    The only difference between Everett’s report and what Goodhue County has is whatever Gary Smith put together. Given Mr. Smith’s credibility on the herion numbers, and his steadfast refusal to offer any evidence on those numbers, I doubt Goodhue County is going to tell us anything that we didn’t already know.

  23. David: The Everett Report and Goodhue investigation do not overlap. See this from the Greene Espel Memo dated Dec. 17, 2007:

    The Goodhue County Attorney is currently investigating various allegations brought to his attention in order to determine whether there is probable cause to believe that criminal violations have taken place. The County Attorney is conducting his investigation independently, using the investigative resources of that office. The County Attorney has specifically requested that Mr. Everett avoid conducting a concurrent civil investigation of these same issues, so as to avoid undermining the integrity and efficacy of the criminal investigation. Accordingly, Mr. Everett’s Report does not examine issues within the scope of the County Attorney’s investigation. The Goodhue County Attorney’s investigation has not concluded. However, no one should presume that the pendency of that investigation suggests a particular outcome. All questions about that investigation must be directed to the County Attorney.

    I wish that I could share your optimism. Until Goodhue concludes, I don’t assume to know what it will conclude.

  24. A friend in Northfield forwarded the information to me this afternoon. Hopefully the numbers of those arrested for distributing heroin may lend some pause David to helping you regain some confidence that I might have had some good intel after all. I’ll also check with Bill Everett as I thought he was a cop in Faribault and worked for the Minnesota League of Cities but I wasn’t aware of his affiliation with the FBI. As a graduate of that great institution’s training facility I would have sworn I never saw his name on the graduation roster there. I sincerely hope that those arrested and those that should be facing forthcoming arrests and exposure will help put an end to the unfortunate early deaths due to overdoses. You are all in my thoughts and prayers.

  25. Gary, you wrote:

    “I’ll also check with Bill Everett as I thought he was a cop in Faribault and worked for the Minnesota League of Cities but I wasn’t aware of his affiliation with the FBI.”

    I don’t know that Everett has any connection to Faribault or the FBI. According to this article, he is an independent investigating attorney from Buffalo:

    There is no mention of the FBI in the article.

    I do know that the Norfolk, NE did hire a former FBI investigator to check out Al Roder before they hired him. I’d guess Roder passed the test, because Norfolk did hire him.

    David, you wrote:

    “Jerold: Not to beat a dead horse, but didn’t we pay Mr. Everett, a former FBI investigator $35,000.00 to investigate this whole sordid affair, and didn’t he come up with nothing but that Lansing was advocating for his own site -which we already knew?”

    Apparently, Everett made sure his investigation didn’t overlap with the Goodhue investigation. More info here:

  26. Curt: I don’t know why the City hired Everett if they aren’t going to follow his recommendations. And, I don’t know why we care about the Goodhue County investigation. What I really don’t understand is why Mr. Summa should get a free pass, but no one else should.

  27. David, I’m not tracking you. What exactly were Everett’s recommendations? I think his report consisted of “findings”, not recommendations. Please correct me if I’m wrong. The city council acted on the findings, censuring Lansing.

    Re: Summa, it goes back to Orwell again: “All animals are equal, some animals are more equal than others.”

  28. Gary G. Smith: What do you mean by “good intel”? The few times I talked with you and dropped something that an honest cop would have considered a good lead, you blew up and basically told me to shut up or I’d be in trouble for telling tales out of school. (I would be glad to provide details if anyone is interested.) My impression of the ill-received press conference in the summer of 2007 was that it was finally beginning to sink in that the townsfolk who had been hammering away at you for two or three years, trying to get you to do something, were about to go over your head. I personally had talked to a BCA agent in St. Paul a couple of times about six months before the press conference.

    Would you be able to provide a timeline for your efforts between the summer of 2004, when the NPD became aware of the uptick in heroin and other opiate use, and July 2007? In particular, I would be curious to know what you were able to uncover about officers in the NPD who were acting to facilitate the drug trade in Northfield in that period.

  29. Curt and David: If you think anyone is getting a “free pass” here, you’re wrong. You have no idea of what this experience has been from Sept 8 ’til now.

    As to Orwell: some “animals” ARE more equal than others, because they adhere to working for principle, rather than personal power.

    If you think this is anything but a thinly disguised act of character defamation, during an election, against a candidate, I think you are wrong.

    Let’s go back to the beginning for a moment … The petition was not sitting on a coffee table in the administrative office for anyone to peruse or “take”.
    The petition was brought out from a rear office, given to Victor to peruse, discussed, and THEN a portion of it was GIVEN TO HIM in EXCHANGE for the requested RECEIPT.

    Let’s at least keep the facts straight in the midst of all the hyperbole.

  30. It is important for people to understand the facts that Kiffi has presented. Victor REQUESTED the receipt. I have never heard of anyone requesting a receipt for so called “stolen” goods!
    With respect to all the candidates running for the 2 year at-large seat it very clear that Victor is the only one who truly knows the issues and how to deal with them. The candidate forums have made this evident. Victor is definitely the obvious choice for city council.

  31. Posted to Nfld News site: Candidate charged with taking public documents.

    Victor Summa, a candidate for an at-large city council seat, was charged late Tuesday night with taking public documents… Judge Thomas Neuville signed the complaint that alleges that on Sept. 4 Summa took portions of a petition asking the city council to hold a citywide referendum on its decision to consider selling bonds to pay for improvements to City Hall. Summa, who filed the petition the previous day, reportedly told City Clerk Deb Little that he needed to retrieve some of the petition’s pages that had “problems.” Little held the file of documents, which the complaint says Summa took from her hands.

  32. I thought I posted one time but must have missed the mark. Mr Oney, I recall several phone conversations with you. If you wish to make a public issue please do so rather than contribute to the paranoia and rumor mongering. I am also quite protective of my professional reputation so I will take strong exception to the degree necessary to keep the facts straight. Mr. Benson, if you have concerns about NPD I would suggest you contact the current chief. I also believe they are probably hiring officers if you feel you might be able to lend your expertise to the profession.

  33. Gary: I think that Scott was trying to make it a public issue. The basic question is why didn’t the NFD do something before the press conference?

    My question has been, and continue to be – what are the facts about drug usage, especially heroin? The consequence of the press conference seemed to be a lot of paranoia and rumor mongoring, but nothing concrete from the NPD.

  34. Gary,

    Do know there were alot of people in Northfield who stood behind you and all your efforts including those who are (now) shaking their heads….knowing you were right all along.
    Those same people enjoy taking credit for work others have done, while pointing their fingers.
    tsk tsk
    I think it is nice you took the time to get back to your old stomping grounds and setting the story straight!

  35. Gary G. Smith: I don’t believe you’ve ever addressed the issue, in public or privately to me, of what, if anything, the NPD was doing to disrupt the drug trade in Northfield prior to July 2007. Perhaps you don’t understand what I mean by a time line, so here’s an example of what I’m talking about:

    August 23, 2008: Jill W. dies of what appears to be a heroin overdose. Northfield police begin investigating immediately, even before the cause of death has been verified.

    September 11, 2008: Northfield and Rice County authorities have discovered who they should be looking for, have enlisted someone to work undercover, and begin a series of controlled purchases from the suspects.

    October 24, 2008: Eight individuals are arrested, and two heroin distribution rings are disabled.

    OK, that’s what the NPD is doing now, and it’s working very well. But what about some of the earlier deaths? On the Faribault Daily News Web site this week, two were mentioned.

    Christopher Ryan Bruno overdosed and died, albeit in Dakota County, in 2003. He was a Northfield boy.

    Did his drugs come from a source in Northfield? What did you do to find out?


    Nicholas Gordon Thomas overdosed and died in January 2006. He was twenty. The dealer who sold the drugs lived in his apartment building, and wasn’t even evicted. He saw no trouble.

    How did your investigation proceed for this one? What had the NPD accomplished by March or April of 2006?

    Now that we’ve seen what the NPD can do if they try, you can hardly call it paranoia and rumor mongering if some of us begin to suspect that you were following an explicit policy of “de-policing.” If that isn’t the case, please enlighten us on the specifics of your efforts in these two cases.

    I have another question, too. Above, you posted the following:

    I am also quite protective of my professional reputation so I will take strong exception to the degree necessary to keep the facts straight.

    As written, that statement is ambiguous, but when it’s parsed the way I think you meant it, it’s sort of dark and vaguely threatening. Perhaps I’m associating it with the old “by any means necessary” mantra. Would you care to elaborate on what you meant?

  36. Scott and Gary: If you are going to discuss the heroin issue, could you move it to that thread? This discussion is about spending a million dollars on city hall and the citizen petition related–I would like to see your comments over on the drug thread. Thanks.

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